Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Lewsean said:

1. The author is a forsworn sympathizer which is obvious from his only other book.

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Which means he has the motive to look for answers, but he also has bias to make the Forsworn seem better.

Lewsean said:

2. The author was not present at the time the events took place, how do we know this its not mentioned anywhere? From his words its obvious he would not fight with/for Ulfric so if he where there then according to his own words he would have been murdered along with everyone else - unless what he says is a lie.

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He never claims to be there. Many books about events aren't from first hand experience.

Lewsean said:

3. The author is an Imperial and has an imperial agenda to make Ulfric look bad. In the book he says:

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Again, race doesn't mean anything. Some of the most damaging books about the Empire have come from Imperials.

Lewsean said:

So he is disappointed in Ulfric's actions "jeopardizing the treaty" yet the Empire could have avoided a war all together if they signed the first one. The "treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War" was all in vain, they sacrificed for the empire to sign away what they started fighting for in the first place.

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No, the Empire wouldn't have accepted the terms at the mere threat of war. After a long and destructive war, many accepted peace at any price. The Empire was never going to win the first war, but it couldn't also agree to terms that shake the foundations of the Empire without a bloody nose.

Also by all indications, the Aldmeri Dominion would have overrun Hammerfell without the Legions having been there. It would have been a quick victory for them, as Hammerfell wasn't united and they weren't fighting Cyrodiil.

The only reason they actually decided to try destroy the Empire is they found out it was weaker than they expected. Now if the Emperor accepted the ultimatum, and civil war broke out everywhere. Do you believe the Thalmor would leave them be? Especially when their spies report that Imperial strength was overestimated.

Lewsean said:

4. Apart from the book, there is no other in game evidence to support any of the claims made in the book. You think maybe one or two people who lived in Markarth at the time would have remembered such a massacre?

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Massacre or liberation? You're looking at it from the Scholar's eyes, many people actually would have thought the Nords were heroes. Executions are mentioned to happen regarding the Forsworn uprising, even a line about "The Nords didn't who who was or wasn't involved"

Lewsean said:

The author claim that the Forsworn were mostly peaceful during their rule, yet when you first enter Markarth a Forsworn is murdering an innocent women. Every single Forsworn you meet in the wild will attack and try to kill you on sight, and for what reason? The Forsworn are savages and worship hagraven's and make human sacrifices, this is how they live outside Markarth why would they be any different inside?

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Firstly the Forsworn killing the woman is under orders from the Silver-Bloods, that "innocent woman" is actually an Imperial Agent working for the Empire.

The Forsworn you meet in the wilds are that way now, it has been twenty six years. It seems unlikely they would have been like that in the city, if I recall they formed an alliance with the Hagravens after they became the Forsworn.

Lewsean said:

So basically how I interpret that - they killed a whole bunch of Nord's but don't don't pay any attention to that, they are only rebels that fight our glorious empire, Ulfric massacred these peaceful people!

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Basically it pulls it more into focus, where the author is picking at one event. By all accounts Ulfric and the Jarl (both would have done executions together) were within the law, the Forsworn did rebel against the kingdom and treason does = death. Anyone killed for not aiding the Nords, is actually justified in Tamriel law.

Lewsean said:

- Every women and child killed is a huge overstatement.

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Claims children old enough to wield a sword that didn't pick one up. Chances are many people did actually aid the Nord militia, the battle would have lasted awhile.

Lewsean said:

- This book is an imperial attempt to damage the Ulfric's name and cause, and to paint the empire in a better light.

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Seems more like a Pro Reachmen attempt to damage the image of Nords themselves. Given by his second book, the Empire isn't in better light either. By the same token I could claim that as Stormcloak propaganda.

If it was Imperial propaganda itself, trying to damage the Stormcloak cause. It would mention the Stormcloaks, or even hint about the rebellion.

The two books actually make more sense as trying to make the Forsworn have an interesting background, as to what made them the way they are now. People just believe it Civil War related, but really they aren't.

TheQahnaarin said:

Fair enough, but to be honest ulfric is pretty damn busy, plus there's a killer on the loose in windhelm. He's not gonna risk even more violence within the city, and don't tell me an imperial would know anymore about the situation of the Argonians and dunmer than he would

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If the Argonians and Dunmer had problems, why is it only during Ulfric's reign they had to be banished, and why only his city? His father didn't boot them out, nor his father before him and so on. If as the Stormcloak supporters say, the Dunmer and Argonians have issues and are violent. Why then, for over a hundred and eighty years of living together, apparently tearing each other to shreds, tails here, arms there. Isn't this at once mentioned, or why previous Jarls didn't banish the Argonians if the answer was that simple?

TheQahnaarin said:

Also where will the dominion invade skyrim from if the stormcloaks win? Is the empire gonna sit back while entire armies move through Cyrodiil? And then even if they do, they're completely bottlenecked at pale pass. Not through morrowind. From sea? The northernmost point in tamriel being invaded from the southernmost culture? Even if they prepare, the north coast is gonna be hard to move across and looks pretty easy to defend if you walk around there in skyrim, with all the icebergs and cliffs.

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The Thalmor have only used major Military force once, in two hundred years of expanding their borders. Why does every Stormcloak think, that is the only thing they can do?

Espionage is what the Thalmor do, assassinations, dissent, assets. Weaken Skyrim however they can, they don't need an entire army. They already have one Nord working for them, there would be more. They planned the Civil War, kept Ulfric from being captured until Tullius caught on, they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks. Do you really think getting "into" Skyrim is the hard part? Keeping them out is the real bitch.

To quote Rimfaxe of an example between Thalmor and Imperial espionage interaction from the TES novels:

"
About the old fella:
He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses.

Oh, and to help with the Thalmor arguments:

...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer.

"They are in everything, these days." "

DrunkenMage said:

I firmly believe in independence, I think provinces should be able to rule themselves. But not with how the Stormcloaks are going about it, and not when it only benefits one race.


I don't think the Empire should let Ulfric take over Skyrim, it weakens the Empire as a whole. It won't be a thing of "Let people get fed up with Ulfric when he makes all his mistakes" If Ulfric fails, the Nords will do what they always do. Which is fighting amongst themselves, as each Jarl tries to gain more power.


It would then take even more resources to get Skyrim back into the fold. Not to mention the provinces surrounding Skyrim have to secure their borders in case the Nords get bored and go back to raiding for things.



I would actually like to see the Redguards take over parts of Skyrim, maybe even the Bretons taking some parts too. Both Stormcloak or Imperial victory, Skyrim is the most weakened province in Tamriel, ravaged by dragons and civil war, guarded by an army of militia.


Morrowind even represents a threat to Skyrim, at least the Imperials mention they've established a staging ground into Morrowind, just in case.


I would be surprised if the provinces didn't expand their borders further into Skyrim. Especially Hammerfell, they're united for the first time in a very long time. Could see them making their Empire again.

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The Nords, as a race, is in great danger in Skyrim after the Thalmor made their appearances quite known. The Thalmor came to Skyrim for genocidal and potential enslavement reasons. They view the Nord's nothing more than a common beast who needs to be enthralled, and tamed. Just listen to their true nature when you engage in battle with them.


"Behold the future! Behold the Thalmor!"

"Nord beast! Your life and your lands are forfeit!" (If the Dragonborn is a Nord.)

"You are but a dog, and I am your master!"

"Don't you see?! Elven supremacy is the only truth!"

"Death is the only escape from your misery!"

"Long live the Aldmeri Dominion!"

Hmm... I don't like you. I think you're a heretic. And so you will die a heretic's death.


What is wrong with the notion of benefiting the Nordic race when they're the true targets in their own home land of the Thalmor? Mind you that the Thalmor was brought over due to the fact that the Empire was too weak to win the Great war against them, and was force to sign a peace treaty that benefited the Aldmeri Dominion more than it did with the Empire? The Empire is weak. They need to clean up their own backyards first before they can clean up other peoples backyards. That is why the Empire should let Ulfric take Skyrim. It will not only benefit the Empire, but also the people in Skyrim as the W.G.C would be null and void. People like Balgruuf would no longer have to keep their Talos worshiping a secret, and their would be no more slaughtering.


An addition Under Stormcloak rulings the Blades would be protected, and be allowed to recruit and gain back the power that they once had.

DrunkenMage said:

Many people are vocal about their support, why aren't they all getting thrown in prison? You blame Igmund for not tossing Stormcloak supporters in jail. Does that mean we should condemn the Stormcloaks for not throwing every Imperial supporter in jail? It is a foolish argument.

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I'm blaming Igmund for not listening to what entrusted employees are suggesting when they mention that he should arrest the Silver-blood family for supporting the Stormcloaks when he is suppose to show his loyalty for the Empire. He is a traitorous Imperial supporting Jarl corrupted by greed and coin... same goes for the Stormcloak supported Jarl in Riften. She and Igmund should be executed following of Maven and Thongvor.

DrunkenMage said:

Everyone has to follow Imperial laws, it doesn't mean the actions of a single Jarl are what the Emperor has sanctioned. The Talos ban isn't something the Empire likes, in fact it is mentioned they barely enforced it. They still barely enforce it.


The banning of Talos is something that kept the Thalmor off their backs so the Empire could rebuild. But they were lazy and never enforced the ban, until Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" agitated the situation and publicly showed that the Empire wasn't upholding the treaty.

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It doesn't matter what the Empire likes or doesn't like. They signed an official piece of document indicating that the worship of Talos is banned in order to end the Great war. They're obligated to be the enforcers of that very same law that they've signed. It isn't the job of the Thalmor to do it but the Imperial Legion.

Blaming Ulfric and his "Son's of Skrim" over the Empire's laziness and incapable of living up their end of the bargain is ridiculous.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Fair enough, but to be honest ulfric is pretty damn busy, plus there's a killer on the loose in windhelm. He's not gonna risk even more violence within the city, and don't tell me an imperial would know anymore about the situation of the Argonians and dunmer than he would

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If the Argonians and Dunmer had problems, why is it only during Ulfric's reign they had to be banished, and why only his city? His father didn't boot them out, nor his father before him and so on. If as the Stormcloak supporters say, the Dunmer and Argonians have issues and are violent. Why then, for over a hundred and eighty years of living together, apparently tearing each other to shreds, tails here, arms there. Isn't this at once mentioned, or why previous Jarls didn't banish the Argonians if the answer was that simple?

TheQahnaarin said:

Also where will the dominion invade skyrim from if the stormcloaks win? Is the empire gonna sit back while entire armies move through Cyrodiil? And then even if they do, they're completely bottlenecked at pale pass. Not through morrowind. From sea? The northernmost point in tamriel being invaded from the southernmost culture? Even if they prepare, the north coast is gonna be hard to move across and looks pretty easy to defend if you walk around there in skyrim, with all the icebergs and cliffs.

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The Thalmor have only used major Military force once, in two hundred years of expanding their borders. Why does every Stormcloak think, that is the only thing they can do?

Espionage is what the Thalmor do, assassinations, dissent, assets. Weaken Skyrim however they can, they don't need an entire army. They already have one Nord working for them, there would be more. They planned the Civil War, kept Ulfric from being captured until Tullius caught on, they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks. Do you really think getting "into" Skyrim is the hard part? Keeping them out is the real bitch.

To quote Rimfaxe of an example between Thalmor and Imperial espionage interaction from the TES novels:

"
About the old fella:
He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses.

Oh, and to help with the Thalmor arguments:

...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer.

"They are in everything, these days." "

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Talk with a few stormcloaks, they are pretty paranoid about spies. The first thing we can assume that's done if ulfric wins is the embassy is burnt down and elenwens dragged out into the courtyard and killed. I get there could be few stragglers but thalmor presence in skyrim is practically null at that point. As for the future, the nords are gonna be pretty careful around any high elf or bosmer who's nosing around. And how much is ulfric really "working for them"? They helped him out of helgen, that's about it. The dossier itself says he's become uncooperative. Unless I'm missing something...?

General Charles Xander said:

TheQahnaarin said:

DrunkenMage said:

Except they're not seen being hostile with each other, no dialogue between the Argonians and Dunmer in Windhelm show evidence they'd be violent. In fact an Argonian was supposed to drink at the Dunmer corner club, but doesn't due to a scripting error.

We also don't see it at Riften which also has Argonian/Dunmer populations. Both cities had an influx of refugees. The conflict between the Dunmer and Argonians happened nearly two hundred years ago. Of course some small raids happen every so often, but that happens to every province. Orcs raid Skyrim, Nords raid Cyrodiil. Often it is due to larger groups of organized bandits than governments.

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Fair enough, but to be honest ulfric is pretty damn busy, plus there's a killer on the loose in windhelm. He's not gonna risk even more violence within the city, and don't tell me an imperial would know anymore about the situation of the Argonians and dunmer than he would

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I find it ironic that Ulfric says something along the lines of "How could he defend Skyrim if he couldn't even defend himself?" When questioned about High King Torryg, yet he has a aerial killer in Windhelm killing people!

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That's a bit different. The butcher isn't challenging his victims for their body parts "in the old way"

Raijin said:

The Jarls still have to follow Imperial law in their holds whether they like it or not. That is what I'm trying to explain to you. Elisif is actually a very bad Jarl who doesn't respect Imperial laws, and this also Including Balgruuf, and Igmund. They have a temple, or an open place to worship Talos. Elisif is an exception, but she does mark you a location of a Talos shrine your map to put her dead husband war horn at., which almost got you killed by a Thalmor agent.

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Everyone has to follow Imperial laws, it doesn't mean the actions of a single Jarl are what the Emperor has sanctioned. The Talos ban isn't something the Empire likes, in fact it is mentioned they barely enforced it. They still barely enforce it.

The banning of Talos is something that kept the Thalmor off their backs so the Empire could rebuild. But they were lazy and never enforced the ban, until Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" agitated the situation and publicly showed that the Empire wasn't upholding the treaty.

Cyrodiil used the provinces that helped them survive and traded them for peace. I don't think rebuilding was on their minds at the time and were probably content to keep talos outlawed and never reclaim southern hammerfell.


(I'm pretty new here so I have no idea how to properly quote stuff which is why the first parts look like I wrote them sorry bout that)

Raijin said:

I'm blaming Igmund for not listening to what entrusted employees are suggesting when they mention that he should arrest the Silver-blood family for supporting the Stormcloaks when he is suppose to show his loyalty for the Empire. He is a traitorous Imperial supporting Jarl corrupted by greed and coin... same goes for the Stormcloak supported Jarl in Riften. She and Igmund should be executed following of Maven and Thongvor.

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Problem is that Igmund even states that the Silver-bloods OWN the very prison they would sent to, not to mention that their support of the Stormcloak is not causing trouble in the hold, giving the Jarl NO EVIDENCE to arrest the entire family with.

As for Law-Giver, I am not touching that subject with a 20 foot pole

Jeremius said:

Problem is that Igmund even states that the Silver-bloods OWN the very prison they would sent to, not to mention that their support of the Stormcloak is not causing trouble in the hold, giving the Jarl NO EVIDENCE to arrest the entire family with.

As for Law-Giver, I am not touching that subject with a 20 foot pole

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Just because The Silver-bloods owns the prisons doesn't mean that they're exempted from going to prison that is attached to the city it self, and yes. Their support of the Stormcloaks is very well causing problems in the hold, especially during the civil war.

Thongvor is very vocal of his support of Ulfric. That is all the evidence you need to arrest him, and to possibly execute him for treason.

Both Stormcloak and Imperial supporters who vocalized their support wands up in prison. Look at Bjartur from Solitude and Threki the Innocent from Riften. Bjartur is possibly facing public execution for her treasonous outburst.

Ahtar: "Rest up, scum. Probably getting executed tomorrow."
Bjartur: "Yeah, you said that yesterday."
Ahtar: "Come now. You'll want to show up in Sovngarde refreshed. You got an eternity of merrimakin' ahead of you." or
"Guess the headsman's been busy with all your friends. Ha ha ha ha ha!"

Bjartur: "Hey, jailor! What I don't understand is why you're siding with the Imperials."
Ahtar: "Shut up, scum."
Bjartur: "I mean, the Redguards fought off the Aldmeri and the Empire, and now Hammerfell is an independent state. That's all we Nords want for Skyrim!"
Ahtar: "I said shut up, scum!"
Bjartur: "So it's okay if your people rebel against the Empire, but not mine?"
Ahtar: "They aren't my "people." I'm with the Empire because they pay me. And that means I'm out here, and you're in there. So shut up, scum!"

Jeremius said:

Raijin said:

I'm blaming Igmund for not listening to what entrusted employees are suggesting when they mention that he should arrest the Silver-blood family for supporting the Stormcloaks when he is suppose to show his loyalty for the Empire. He is a traitorous Imperial supporting Jarl corrupted by greed and coin... same goes for the Stormcloak supported Jarl in Riften. She and Igmund should be executed following of Maven and Thongvor.

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Problem is that Igmund even states that the Silver-bloods OWN the very prison they would sent to, not to mention that their support of the Stormcloak is not causing trouble in the hold, giving the Jarl NO EVIDENCE to arrest the entire family with.

As for Law-Giver, I am not touching that subject with a 20 foot pole

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True. The good Jarl has a pretty bad habit of breaking protocol. However, I wouldn't call him "traitorous" as he hasn't sided w/ Ulfric. The Jarl actually seems pretty loyal to the Empire once you speak with him. In fact, he had to swear fealty to both Empire and WGC before the Empire took Markarth back or would recognize his authority as Jarl.

Now. You do realize of course, that Stormcloak Jarls are also loaded with Gold and are Greedy no? Jarl Skald for example, from that dreadful Dawnstar is cracking the whip and placing very heavy demand on his hold's economy as is Windhelm. Thalmor on the other hand, have an excellent economy, enough to even help support the Stormcloaks with.

Raijin said:

Just because The Silver-bloods owns the prisons doesn't mean that they're exempted from going to prison that is attached to the city it self, and yes. Their support of the Stormcloaks is very well causing problems in the hold, especially during the civil war.

Thongvor is very vocal of his support of Ulfric. That is all the evidence you need to arrest him, and to possibly execute him for treason.

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Two things:

1. Owning a prison kind of makes the guards in the owner's pockets. it would be a day spa for the Silver-Bloods
2. Speaking out in favor of a faction is not a crime. Speaking out is not treason.

Jeremius said:

Raijin said:

Just because The Silver-bloods owns the prisons doesn't mean that they're exempted from going to prison that is attached to the city it self, and yes. Their support of the Stormcloaks is very well causing problems in the hold, especially during the civil war.

Thongvor is very vocal of his support of Ulfric. That is all the evidence you need to arrest him, and to possibly execute him for treason.

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Two things:

1. Owning a prison kind of makes the guards in the owner's pockets. it would be a day spa for the Silver-Bloods
2. Speaking out in favor of a faction is not a crime. Speaking out is not treason.

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1. It should of never has gotten to that point. Cidhna Mine is attached to Markarth, and therefor the mine is suppose to belong to Markarth, and not some wealthy noble.

2. Uh yes it is. I just show you samples of 2 people who spoke in favor of a faction wand up going to prison... one is possibly facing execution from Solitude.

DrunkenMage said:

TheQahnaarin said:

Fair enough, but to be honest ulfric is pretty damn busy, plus there's a killer on the loose in windhelm. He's not gonna risk even more violence within the city, and don't tell me an imperial would know anymore about the situation of the Argonians and dunmer than he would

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If the Argonians and Dunmer had problems, why is it only during Ulfric's reign they had to be banished, and why only his city? His father didn't boot them out, nor his father before him and so on. If as the Stormcloak supporters say, the Dunmer and Argonians have issues and are violent. Why then, for over a hundred and eighty years of living together, apparently tearing each other to shreds, tails here, arms there. Isn't this at once mentioned, or why previous Jarls didn't banish the Argonians if the answer was that simple?

TheQahnaarin said:

Also where will the dominion invade skyrim from if the stormcloaks win? Is the empire gonna sit back while entire armies move through Cyrodiil? And then even if they do, they're completely bottlenecked at pale pass. Not through morrowind. From sea? The northernmost point in tamriel being invaded from the southernmost culture? Even if they prepare, the north coast is gonna be hard to move across and looks pretty easy to defend if you walk around there in skyrim, with all the icebergs and cliffs.

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The Thalmor have only used major Military force once, in two hundred years of expanding their borders. Why does every Stormcloak think, that is the only thing they can do?

Espionage is what the Thalmor do, assassinations, dissent, assets. Weaken Skyrim however they can, they don't need an entire army. They already have one Nord working for them, there would be more. They planned the Civil War, kept Ulfric from being captured until Tullius caught on, they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks. Do you really think getting "into" Skyrim is the hard part? Keeping them out is the real bitch.

To quote Rimfaxe of an example between Thalmor and Imperial espionage interaction from the TES novels:

"
About the old fella:
He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses.

Oh, and to help with the Thalmor arguments:

...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer.

"They are in everything, these days." "

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And now that I think about the racism thing, if your a dunmer, who are you more mad at? The stormcloaks, because you face some discrimination after being taken in by them, doing relatively little about your situation but still being fed and having a roof over your head(plus, naturally dunmer and nords have been historical enemies, would the nords be any better off if they had to seek refuge in morrowind?), or the empire for completely abandoning you during the OC and letting raven rock sink? Surely you've talked to Adril before.

Raijin said:

2. Uh yes it is. I just show you samples of 2 people who spoke in favor of a faction wand up going to prison... one is possibly facing execution from Solitude.

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They do not tell us anything. Clearly Markarth is corrupt if traitors can be simple musiness men and own a mine and the guards.

All we know is that THONGVOR supports the rebels, and nothing about the allegiance of the rest of the clan is truly known. Even Thingvor's allegiance in the game is more implied than outright stated (simply talking praise about Ulfric Stormcloak is not treason or allegiance to the rebellion).

@Raijin: I think what is being said is that the Silver-Bloods, as a clan, have not betrayed Markarth, and have thus not given much of a reason top arrest for treason.

Betraying a Hold is not the same as betraying the Empire. Igmund may be an Imperial SUPPORTING Jarl, but his first duty is to protect his hold. The best he can do about the Silver-Bloods is send word to Tulius about them and watch them.

I

TheQahnaarin said:

Also where will the dominion invade skyrim from if the stormcloaks win? Is the empire gonna sit back while entire armies move through Cyrodiil? And then even if they do, they're completely bottlenecked at pale pass. Not through morrowind. From sea? The northernmost point in tamriel being invaded from the southernmost culture? Even if they prepare, the north coast is gonna be hard to move across and looks pretty easy to defend if you walk around there in skyrim, with all the icebergs and cliffs.

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It would be like 300 lol

Jeremy Stone said:

@Raijin: I think what is being said is that the Silver-Bloods, as a clan, have not betrayed Markarth, and have thus not given much of a reason top arrest for treason.

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Markarth is Imperial territory and the Silver-blood family is already being investigated by General Tullius himself.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d6686

"I'm one of General Tullius's agents. I was sent to investigate the Treasury House and the Silver-Blood family.

They own Cidhna Mine, one of the toughest jails in Skyrim. I was hoping I could buy or steal the deed, but I don't think that's how things work here." - Margret

And yes. The Silver bloods in fact betrayed Markarth and that is because Igmund allowed their behavior to go on for so long. He is too stupid to see the pattern, and to connect them. To see that the Silver bloods are are connected to the Stormcloaks. During the cut scene where you invade Markarth during the civil war as a Stormcloak Igmund fires out these final words: "Thongvor. I should have executed your whole treacherous clan when I had the chance."

Raijin said:

What is wrong with the notion of benefiting the Nordic race when they're the true targets in their own home land of the Thalmor? Mind you that the Thalmor was brought over due to the fact that the Empire was too weak to win the Great war against them, and was force to sign a peace treaty that benefited the Aldmeri Dominion more than it did with the Empire? The Empire is weak. They need to clean up their own backyards first before they can clean up other peoples backyards. That is why the Empire should let Ulfric take Skyrim. It will not only benefit the Empire, but also the people in Skyrim as the W.G.C would be null and void. People like Balgruuf would no longer have to keep their Talos worshiping a secret, and their would be no more slaughtering.


An addition Under Stormcloak rulings the Blades would be protected, and be allowed to recruit and gain back the power that they once had.

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The Thalmor are against everyone, there isn't this notion that they're only against Nords. In fact they've shown they'll commit acts of genocide against their own kin, the Thalmor are against everyone who isn't the Thalmor.

The Thalmor at the moment are actually against the Empire, they hate everything it stands for and work to weaken it anyway they can.

The Thalmor have been operating in the Empire for the last hundred and fifty years. Justiciars were allowed into Skyrim, Thalmor walking around out in the open. But the rest of their doings, they've been doing that for a long time and it has nothing to do with the Empire "letting them".

The Blades are protected by whoever is in control, they're safe in their secret fortress. Which is easily protected and would require large numbers to assault.

TheQahnaarin said:

Talk with a few stormcloaks, they are pretty paranoid about spies. The first thing we can assume that's done if ulfric wins is the embassy is burnt down and elenwens dragged out into the courtyard and killed.

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Yeah, but what do they do to stop spies?

The Thalmor Embassy isn't anything, it is just a spot where the Thalmor put on their show. They haven't needed an embassy for over a hundred years.

TheQahnaarin said:

I get there could be few stragglers but thalmor presence in skyrim is practically null at that point.

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The Thalmor have been infiltrating and setting up nests in the Empire for the last hundred and fifty years. Yet killing some Justiciars who only arrived in the last twenty five, somehow removes their presence?

TheQahnaarin said:

As for the future, the nords are gonna be pretty careful around any high elf or bosmer who's nosing around.

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This comment is seen a lot, mainly by those who don't know much about the Thalmor. They have assets and agents working for them of all races, as shown in what I quoted from Rimfaxe on the novels. They use men, they use elves, they use every race.

TheQahnaarin said:

And how much is ulfric really "working for them"? They helped him out of helgen, that's about it. The dossier itself says he's become uncooperative. Unless I'm missing something...?

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I wasn't talking about Ulfric Stormcloak.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur

If there is one sympathizer, there are more. They've been doing this for a hundred and fifty years or more.

TheQahnaarin said:

And now that I think about the racism thing, if your a dunmer, who are you more mad at? The stormcloaks, because you face some discrimination after being taken in by them, doing relatively little about your situation but still being fed and having a roof over your head(plus, naturally dunmer and nords have been historical enemies, would the nords be any better off if they had to seek refuge in morrowind?), or the empire for completely abandoning you during the OC and letting raven rock sink? Surely you've talked to Adril before.

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The Stormcloaks didn't "take them in" the Dunmer came to Windhelm nearly two hundred years ago.

You do realize that the Nords were attacking House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis?

"Yes, markedly so. Ulfric and his Stormcloaks made no secret of their disdain for the Dark Elves. In fact, they didn't seem to care much for anyone who wasn't a Nord. The folk of the Empire have always had a more cosmopolitan view of the world, so I'm glad to see them in charge." - Malthyr Elenil

"It's a new day in Windhelm. The Stormcloaks are gone, and so is their prejudice." "You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm." - Scouts-Many-Marshes.

Looks like Dunmer and Argonians are happy to see the Empire.

Raijin said:

It doesn't matter what the Empire likes or doesn't like. They signed an official piece of document indicating that the worship of Talos is banned in order to end the Great war. They're obligated to be the enforcers of that very same law that they've signed. It isn't the job of the Thalmor to do it but the Imperial Legion.

Blaming Ulfric and his "Son's of Skrim" over the Empire's laziness and incapable of living up their end of the bargain is ridiculous.

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You're blaming the Empire because it doesn't want to enforce the Talos ban? That it was lazy upholding the treaty and stamping out Talos worship?

Now I've seen everything...

Your arguments Raijin, I can barely keep up. But over the course of debates between us, this sums up what you have presented:

"The Empire is bad for fighting the Great War. The Empire is bad for not continuing to fight the Great War. The Empire is bad because it outlawed Talos worship. The Empire is bad because it doesn't properly outlaw Talos worship."

TheQahnaarin said:

I don't think rebuilding was on their minds at the time and were probably content to keep talos outlawed and never reclaim southern hammerfell.

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"White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day." - Delphine

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. - The Great War

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Rikke

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - General Tullius

Raijin said:

Jeremy Stone said:

@Raijin: I think what is being said is that the Silver-Bloods, as a clan, have not betrayed Markarth, and have thus not given much of a reason top arrest for treason.

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Markarth is Imperial territory and the Silver-blood family is already being investigated by General Tullius himself.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d6686

"I'm one of General Tullius's agents. I was sent to investigate the Treasury House and the Silver-Blood family.

They own Cidhna Mine, one of the toughest jails in Skyrim. I was hoping I could buy or steal the deed, but I don't think that's how things work here." - Margret

And yes. The Silver bloods in fact betrayed Markarth and that is because Igmund allowed their behavior to go on for so long. He is too stupid to see the pattern, and to connect them. To see that the Silver bloods are are connected to the Stormcloaks. During the cut scene where you invade Markarth during the civil war as a Stormcloak Igmund fires out these final words: "Thongvor. I should have executed your whole treacherous clan when I had the chance."

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What about the Grey Manes?