Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Jeremius said:

IT does not matter if it was a lie or not. The Stormcloaks proved it right by attacking, at least as far as Whiterun in concerned. Lie or not, it was made true by an idiotic strategist.

Click to expand...

Oh forget it, you obviously lack the common sense to see obvious things. THE ATTACK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE FALSE INFORMATION FORCING BALGRUUF TO GARRISON LEGION TROOPS IN WHITERUN. If Ulfric wanted to attack from the start he wouldn't have waited for Balgruuf to bolster his defences. Arguing for your side is fine, throwing logic out of the window to do so is not.

Lewsean said:

Jeremius said:

IT does not matter if it was a lie or not. The Stormcloaks proved it right by attacking, at least as far as Whiterun in concerned. Lie or not, it was made true by an idiotic strategist.

Click to expand...

Oh forget it, you obviously lack the common sense to see obvious things. THE ATTACK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE FALSE INFORMATION FORCING BALGRUUF TO GARRISON LEGION TROOPS IN WHITERUN. If Ulfric wanted to attack from the start he wouldn't have waited for Balgruuf to bolster his defences. Arguing for your side is fine, throwing logic out of the window to do so is not.

Click to expand...

You lack common sense. Look at it from Balgruuf's point of view. He did not know it was false information, and the stormcloaks attacked. In his mind, logically the imperials were correct. We see it differently because we are not in his position.

Yes, it came from false information. ONLY the imperial leadership (Tullius and Rikke), however, knew it was false. Saying it came from false info and that the imperials lied because of it is meta-gaming, not common sense.

DrunkenMage said:

LegateFasendil said:

I would say the lesson to take home here is the axe was a ploy either way, Jarl B would have accepted and intended a duel with Ulfric according to the old ways, although Ulfric had other plans. Still doesn't change the fact that Ulfric was given the axe -meant for him alone- and instead sent someone else to answer a personal challenge

Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter, given some thought I'm probably wrong on the axe thing. It is such a minor part and not really important to debate on.

Chances are the axe can lead to a duel or it could lead to armies clashing.

Click to expand...

Ok Proventius

Of course then again, Whiterun to me reminds me of the old Empire. You know? You don't think it's important, just like the Empire now doesn't think some things are important. I defend or defended rather, the Empire because Jarl B defends it. For no other reason other than this. I'm more of the "Free Lance" type of person anyways. It's just, I can't see Ulfric forcing himself on Whiterun when they already have freedom of speech and religion. That's a huge conflict of interest and this exchange with the axe is of monumental importance, def something debatable. We don't have to continue debating it, but it's a big deal and worthy of further study as to why a "Freedom Fighter" would force himself on a hold that already has freedom. That's very important.

I respect everyone's opinion always, and I respect you DM. It's just people on the Titanic didn't think that little floating hunk of ice was important, Proventius didn't think the matter of the axe was that important, but I have a mind of Irileth.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

I would say the lesson to take home here is the axe was a ploy either way, Jarl B would have accepted and intended a duel with Ulfric according to the old ways, although Ulfric had other plans. Still doesn't change the fact that Ulfric was given the axe -meant for him alone- and instead sent someone else to answer a personal challenge.

Compromising on these things is fine, however there are some things you don't compromise on. I remember back in the day, when I first joined the Empire, the Stormcloaks never compromised with use on -anything-. Like Ulfric said in that video, "And don't ever question Me or Galmar".

Well, I think this about does it for me and I'm glad to see how well the Empire has pulled together on here. I am, perhaps a little disappointed about one or two items, however the cause comes first and I'm proud to have been a part of it. Still, I've always believed in change for the Empire as well as it's survival, I've never been an Imperial apologist by any means, or a fan of the Mede Dynasty.

Hopefully, TES VI will be worth all the time and effort we've all put into this. Have fun everyone! ​

Jarl Bulgruuf sends you to answer Ulfric's challenge too. They are the ranking officers, you don't question orders. I also really, really hope that all this discussion over the years actually means something for the next installment, would be a shame for all this brain power and such to have gone to waste!

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with that last part. If TES VI doesn't at least come with a free alcoholic bev I'll be quite distraught.

Lewsean said:

Jeremius said:

IT does not matter if it was a lie or not. The Stormcloaks proved it right by attacking, at least as far as Whiterun in concerned. Lie or not, it was made true by an idiotic strategist.

Click to expand...

Oh forget it, you obviously lack the common sense to see obvious things. THE ATTACK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE FALSE INFORMATION FORCING BALGRUUF TO GARRISON LEGION TROOPS IN WHITERUN. If Ulfric wanted to attack from the start he wouldn't have waited for Balgruuf to bolster his defences. Arguing for your side is fine, throwing logic out of the window to do so is not.

Click to expand...

What false info? Ulfric didn't wait any longer than he had to. It's actually discussed in that video I posted a page or two back. Gen Tully said to embellish, there's nothing wrong with that. People embellish things every day, esp in dip dealings esp when you are telling the truth.

Furthermore, Ulfric had been planning to attack Whiterun since the beginning, he discusses this over and over again at Windhelm. The Imperials were in the right for trying to warn Jarl B.

Legion being there was just icing on the cake, Ulfric was coming anyways. Which is the very reason why I left his cause in the way back.

No, don't blame Whiterun on the Legion. Jarl B has to defend his people and Ulfric had already threated him with the axe gesture. The Legion being in Whiterun was self defense, Ulfric left the good Jarl no other choice but to prepare for war, seeing how Ulfric was not willing to a duel, unlike the Torygg massacre.

885 pages, I read 885 pages..... WOW I officially have no life!
Hello everyone! I (obviously) have been watching you for quite some time..>_>
I'm glad to be here and contribute to this Hell condemned thread!

You have NO idea how difficult it was to make an account.
But I'm happy to finally be able to be here!

Jeremius said:

Lewsean said:

Jeremius said:

IT does not matter if it was a lie or not. The Stormcloaks proved it right by attacking, at least as far as Whiterun in concerned. Lie or not, it was made true by an idiotic strategist.

Click to expand...

Oh forget it, you obviously lack the common sense to see obvious things. THE ATTACK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE FALSE INFORMATION FORCING BALGRUUF TO GARRISON LEGION TROOPS IN WHITERUN. If Ulfric wanted to attack from the start he wouldn't have waited for Balgruuf to bolster his defences. Arguing for your side is fine, throwing logic out of the window to do so is not.

Click to expand...

You lack common sense. Look at it from Balgruuf's point of view. He did not know it was false information, and the stormcloaks attacked. In his mind, logically the imperials were correct. We see it differently because we are not in his position.

Yes, it came from false information. ONLY the imperial leadership (Tullius and Rikke), however, knew it was false. Saying it came from false info and that the imperials lied because of it is meta-gaming, not common sense.

Click to expand...

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Lewsean said:

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Click to expand...

They lied true, but only to the minds of us, the players, who meta-game everything. Jarl Balgruuf did not know it was a lie, so to him, it was true that they were planning to attack all along when they did attack.

Common sense is not meta-game, but looking at it from the perspectives of the people involved. It matters not that it was a lie, it matters that the Stormcloaks attacked, like the Imperials said they would.

It does not matter what the Imperials did. caring is meta-gaming, and bias. Bias does not equal common sense.

The fact of the matter is that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks walked into the trap the Imperials set because he chose to attack AFTER the warning happened, making it look true in the eyes of Balgruuf and the Empire.

Jeremius said:

Lewsean said:

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Click to expand...

They lied true, but only to the minds of us, the players, who meta-game everything. Jarl Balgruuf did not know it was a lie, so to him, it was true that they were planning to attack all along when they did attack.

Common sense is not meta-game, but looking at it from the perspectives of the people involved. It matters not that it was a lie, it matters that the Stormcloaks attacked, like the Imperials said they would.

Click to expand...

If you're referring to the letter that was drafted to Jarl Balgruuf, it is uncertain that the letter contained false information. If not well I just got here... :S

General Charles Xander said:

Jeremius said:

Lewsean said:

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Click to expand...

They lied true, but only to the minds of us, the players, who meta-game everything. Jarl Balgruuf did not know it was a lie, so to him, it was true that they were planning to attack all along when they did attack.

Common sense is not meta-game, but looking at it from the perspectives of the people involved. It matters not that it was a lie, it matters that the Stormcloaks attacked, like the Imperials said they would.

Click to expand...

If you're referring to the letter that was drafted to Jarl Balgruuf, it is uncertain that the letter contained false information. If not well I just got here... :S

Click to expand...

I think that is what he was saying.

Jeremy Stone said:

General Charles Xander said:

Jeremius said:

They lied true, but only to the minds of us, the players, who meta-game everything. Jarl Balgruuf did not know it was a lie, so to him, it was true that they were planning to attack all along when they did attack.

Common sense is not meta-game, but looking at it from the perspectives of the people involved. It matters not that it was a lie, it matters that the Stormcloaks attacked, like the Imperials said they would.

Click to expand...

If you're referring to the letter that was drafted to Jarl Balgruuf, it is uncertain that the letter contained false information. If not well I just got here... :S

Click to expand...

I think that is what he was saying.

Click to expand...

*You*

Thank you Ivory!

Lewsean said:

Jeremius said:

Lewsean said:

Oh forget it, you obviously lack the common sense to see obvious things. THE ATTACK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE FALSE INFORMATION FORCING BALGRUUF TO GARRISON LEGION TROOPS IN WHITERUN. If Ulfric wanted to attack from the start he wouldn't have waited for Balgruuf to bolster his defences. Arguing for your side is fine, throwing logic out of the window to do so is not.

Click to expand...

You lack common sense. Look at it from Balgruuf's point of view. He did not know it was false information, and the stormcloaks attacked. In his mind, logically the imperials were correct. We see it differently because we are not in his position.

Yes, it came from false information. ONLY the imperial leadership (Tullius and Rikke), however, knew it was false. Saying it came from false info and that the imperials lied because of it is meta-gaming, not common sense.

Click to expand...

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Click to expand...

Tell me, why do you think Balgruuf sided with the Empire other than the Stormcloaks? Do you think it was the letter? Or maybe his loyalty? I think he did it to do what he has always done, to do what's best for his people. True he considered Ulfric's cause, but I think when it came down to it, It wasn't about the gold, It wasn't about the High King, Hell it wasn't even about the Empire! In the end he did what was best for his people and did all that he could and did what was best, which sounds a lot like a certain someone called Titus Mede II.

And so it begins... *equips verbal sweatband and raises shield*

General Charles Xander: Too many posts. ever heard of the edit button? Not being mean, just do not need to see one person post so much.

Jeremy Stone said:

General Charles Xander: Too many posts. ever heard of the edit button? Not being mean, just do not need to see one person post so much.

Click to expand...

I understand, I'm new here so I'm sort of blazing through all the help options and tips. Sorry for the inconvenience

General Charles Xander said:

Jeremy Stone said:

General Charles Xander: Too many posts. ever heard of the edit button? Not being mean, just do not need to see one person post so much.

Click to expand...

I understand, I'm new here so I'm sort of blazing through all the help options and tips. Sorry for the inconvenience

Click to expand...

It is alright. No harm done.

General Charles Xander said:

Lewsean said:

Jeremius said:

You lack common sense. Look at it from Balgruuf's point of view. He did not know it was false information, and the stormcloaks attacked. In his mind, logically the imperials were correct. We see it differently because we are not in his position.

Yes, it came from false information. ONLY the imperial leadership (Tullius and Rikke), however, knew it was false. Saying it came from false info and that the imperials lied because of it is meta-gaming, not common sense.

Click to expand...

Listen dude, I'm not saying either party is in the wrong for any action they take.. This is a civil war, extreme measures need to be taken on both sides. I just remain firm in my belief that Ulfric respected Jarl Balgruuf enough that he wouldn't plan an attack whilst he was still on the fence. But the false information directly effected the outcome of the tension between Jarl B and Ulfric, had Tullius not gotten involved I believe Jarl B had enough doubt in his mind he would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Whether Jarl B knew this information was false matters little, the actions resulting from that piece of information caused(Or quickened) the attack on Whiterun. And yes, the Imperials did lie.. The commanding officer is exactly that, the one in charge, his decisions are one with his troops.

Click to expand...

Tell me, why do you think Balgruuf sided with the Empire other than the Stormcloaks? Do you think it was the letter? Or maybe his loyalty? I think he did it to do what he has always done, to do what's best for his people. True he considered Ulfric's cause, but I think when it came down to it, It wasn't about the gold, It wasn't about the High King, Hell it wasn't even about the Empire! In the end he did what was best for his people and did all that he could and did what was best, which sounds a lot like a certain someone called Titus Mede II.

Click to expand...

Jarl B has a history of running Whiterun as a city-state. My thinking on this was once High King Torygg's administration fell apart from the duel, B just said whatever Whiterun hold is my first resp and the Jarls can't agree on anything so I'll just take care of Whiterun. Jarl B stood up to the pressures of the world for as long as he possibly could, providing freedom of speech and religion for his people. However, freedom has it's cost and so the Imperial, Stormcloaks and Thalmor pass thru his territory... nothing he could do about that, esp with the threat from Ulfric looming over his every step. He chose the Empire -w/ conditions- because he and his hold retained the most freedom and autonomy (not the same) via the Empire vs Ulfric. With Ulfric, you get some freedoms, but not autonomy.

And the Empire allowed Skyrim the most autonomy and I think it was a good arrangement. About the "chests of gold", Jarl B does state it's getting harder and harder for him to keep his military paid for. The tone of that conversation indicates he's personally paying for the military to some extent. Not to mention the large bounties you get from purging the raider element from the hold.

As for the intelligence provided by Gen Tullius, the Stormcloaks had an advance camp setup in Whiterun already! The Imperials were telling the truth and wanted Jarl B's favor at the same time. It was Ulfric who forced the good Jarl to choose. It's difficult to argue the Imperials were lying when Ulfric was indeed planning to invade Whiterun. Even if Jarl B accepted the axe, Ulfric said he would bide his time. None of them liked Jarl B and it's also clear the Greymanes didn't approve of his leadership so an attack was imminent. The Empire was telling the truth about the Stormcloaks and their intentions towards Whiterun and the Jarl B.

Lewsean said:

Exactly my point, plan B only needs to come into effect because Tullius lies and convinces Balgruuf that Ulfric has already initiated plan B. Balgruuf sends the axe after receiving these documents, much to Ulfric's suprise. I can't find the exact quotes, but upon delivering Balgruuf's axe Ulfric says something along the lines of 'I guess I was wrong about him' and then procedes to plan B.

Click to expand...

"Oh. What's this? Ahhh... You're quite brave to carry such a message. It's a pity you've chosen the wrong side... You can return this axe to the man who sent it. And tell him he should prepare to entertain... visitors. I expect a great deal of excitement in the city of Whiterun in the near future..."

You've killed the High King. Why make war on your own people?

"I have shown the people that when our Jarls drink the Empire's milk, it makes us weak. I must now show them the path that will lead us back to our strength. There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff. The Empire and the Jarls who back them must be swept away. The people demand it. I demand it."

Tullius didn't lie, intelligence did show the Stormcloaks were preparing to take Whiterun. They had already invaded the Hold and set up a Military Camp. You're using Ulfric's dialogue with Galmar as evidence Tullius had lied. You're forgetting that Rikke and Tullius don't hear what Ulfric is saying or his plan. They see troop movements and positioning around Whiterun, that the war has halted while Stormcloaks gather.

If you can prove that spies and scouts can read minds, then I'll agree that the Empire "lied"