Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Lewsean

Member
Torygg was the High King of Skyrim, Ulfric's challenge was to either face him in a duel or a new Moot will be called. That is nothing like the axe, and Torygg's challenge could only be issued to a High King.

The face to face wouldn't happen, because Ulfric wanted to test his army in battle. It is painfully obvious, the duel was the very first thing considered.

Of course what happens next is down to the Jarls, which is why Ulfric sends his soldiers instead.

If accepting the axe means they're friends, why does Ulfric reject Balgruuf's axe? Didn't he apparently want to be friends with Whiterun?

Edit: You're not wrong, there is just more to it. The duel considered is indeed part of it.
I believe he rejected it because the only reason he would send an axe to Ulfric is if he sided with the Empire, like if he was a Stormcloak sympathizer he wouldn't need to give Ulfric the ultimatum because he'd be on his side, thus he'd have the strategic centre of Whiterun, which is the end goal in this. Yes it may have been considered by Jarl Bulgruuf, but what I'm saying is the sending of the axe doesn't mean a 1v1 fight and wasn't considered between the both of them because the only time you hear anything about challenging in the old way is a line or two of dialogue prior to them accepting Ulfric sending the Stormcloaks. Yes I accept Balgruuf would've fought 1v1, but I'm defending the initial statement that the axe is ONLY an offer to duel and that Ulfric was a coward for sending his soldiers instead.


I would say the lesson to take home here is the axe was a ploy either way, Jarl B would have accepted and intended a duel with Ulfric according to the old ways, although Ulfric had other plans. Still doesn't change the fact that Ulfric was given the axe -meant for him alone- and instead sent someone else to answer a personal challenge.

Compromising on these things is fine, however there are some things you don't compromise on. I remember back in the day, when I first joined the Empire, the Stormcloaks never compromised with use on -anything-. Like Ulfric said in that video, "And don't ever question Me or Galmar".

Well, I think this about does it for me and I'm glad to see how well the Empire has pulled together on here. I am, perhaps a little disappointed about one or two items, however the cause comes first and I'm proud to have been a part of it. Still, I've always believed in change for the Empire as well as it's survival, I've never been an Imperial apologist by any means, or a fan of the Mede Dynasty.

Hopefully, TES VI will be worth all the time and effort we've all put into this. Have fun everyone! :)

Jarl Bulgruuf sends you to answer Ulfric's challenge too. They are the ranking officers, you don't question orders. I also really, really hope that all this discussion over the years actually means something for the next installment, would be a shame for all this brain power and such to have gone to waste!
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Arguing over Balgruuf? He sends the axe, not as a challenge but a choice. That choice is "leave whiterun out of this, or we will defend ourselves." Just like the Ulfric side which is "Join us, or we force you to give up your city. Either way, we are getting it."
 

Lewsean

Member
Arguing over Balgruuf? He sends the axe, not as a challenge but a choice. That choice is "leave whiterun out of this, or we will defend ourselves." Just like the Ulfric side which is "Join us, or we force you to give up your city. Either way, we are getting it."
So why is Bulgruuf's axe a choice, but Ulfric's axe a challenge to a face to face duel? You can't change the meaning of things to suit a certain argument, I already stated that the axe thing is exactly that, friendship or not, but the argument started by someone stating it meant a 1v1 duel and Ulfric was a coward for sending Stormcloaks. Anyway, let's all side with the empire, disregard Talos and wait whilst Mundus implodes and the Elves get what they want which is everything to be destroyed :).
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Not friendship, neutrality. Balgruuf's axe is a choice of Neutrality or war. Uflric's is a choice of join or war. Simple choices, whether people understand or not. It is misinterpreted as a challenge.

You want to convince someone to join you? Do not send something so easily misinterpreted.
 

Lewsean

Member
Not friendship, neutrality. Balgruuf's axe is a choice of Neutrality or war. Uflric's is a choice of join or war. Simple choices, whether people understand or not. It is misinterpreted as a challenge.

You want to convince someone to join you? Do not send something so easily misinterpreted.
lol, like I said before you can't change the meaning of something so it benefits your point of view, which is exactly what you're doing.. You like Balgruuf so him sending his axe is 'nice', you don't like Ulfric so him sending his axe is demanding war/alliance. They mean the SAME THING, which is friend or foe.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
There is no meaning behind the axes. They are just axes that people interpret themselves as messages. I do not like Ulfric but see a choice in the axe.
 

Lewsean

Member
There is no meaning behind the axes. They are just axes that people interpret themselves as messages. I do not like Ulfric but see a choice in the axe.
"Yes. An axe. How long have you been in Skyrim. Give the man my axe. If he keeps it, I will bide my time. If he returns it to you, it means war." - Ulfric

"How long have you been in Skyrim? Yes. Give the man my axe. If he returns it to you it means we have business to settle. If he keeps it, then we are at peace." If you ask if you should say anything to him, he'll say, "Men who understand one another need not waste words. There are but a few simple truths behind one warrior giving another his axe. Ulfric will know my meaning." - Bulgruuf


Once again, it means friend or foe, nothing else.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Not that simple. Ulfric talks about taking whitewrun without fighting, meaning that "friend" in this case means siding with the rebels. Balgruuf's side of it is him staying neutral. It is not a simple "friend" or "foe"
 

Lewsean

Member
Not that simple. Ulfric talks about taking whitewrun without fighting, meaning that "friend" in this case means siding with the rebels. Balgruuf's side of it is him staying neutral. It is not a simple "friend" or "foe"
Staying neutral in a civil war just shows how incompetant he is.. He only picks the Empires side upon receiving false documents, which shows just how desperate the Empire is also. Whatever your interpretation of the axe is, the argument started over whether an axe meant a duel, which is obviously not the case so I'm happy to put this one to rest :).
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Not exactly false. The Stormcloaks are planning to attack the city, but that is more a plan B than plan A. The axe means that IF Ulfric accepted, he as Jarl Ballin's "friend" would respect the Whiterun Jarl's wishes to not join the war. IF it was the other way around, that means that Balgruuf agreed with the rebellion and that may mean he would side with the rebellion, fighting alongside them, and giving Ulfric the Hold that is the most important in the war without the need to go to plan b.
 

Lewsean

Member
Not exactly false. The Stormcloaks are planning to attack the city, but that is more a plan B than plan A. The axe means that IF Ulfric accepted, he as Jarl Ballin's "friend" would respect the Whiterun Jarl's wishes to not join the war. IF it was the other way around, that means that Balgruuf agreed with the rebellion and that may mean he would side with the rebellion, fighting alongside them, and giving Ulfric the Hold that is the most important in the war without the need to go to plan b.
Well the documents are false because Ulfric currently has no itention of attacking Whiterun as he views Balgruuf as a "true Nord, who will come around", those false orders convinced Balgruuf to join the Empire, which then forced the attack.

Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."
Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."
Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"
Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."
Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"
Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."
Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"
Ulfric: "Soon."
Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
OR as I said, it was a plan B, a backup. Backup are set up, but not set into motion until Plan A (the main plan) fails. Plan A for Ulfric with Balgruuf is that because he is a true nord, The Jarl of Whiterun will come around to their way of thinking. That fails and plan B has to be enacted.
 

Lewsean

Member
OR as I said, it was a plan B, a backup. Backup are set up, but not set into motion until Plan A (the main plan) fails. Plan A for Ulfric with Balgruuf is that because he is a true nord, The Jarl of Whiterun will come around to their way of thinking. That fails and plan B has to be enacted.
Exactly my point, plan B only needs to come into effect because Tullius lies and convinces Balgruuf that Ulfric has already initiated plan B. Balgruuf sends the axe after receiving these documents, much to Ulfric's suprise. I can't find the exact quotes, but upon delivering Balgruuf's axe Ulfric says something along the lines of 'I guess I was wrong about him' and then procedes to plan B.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
OR as I said, it was a plan B, a backup. Backup are set up, but not set into motion until Plan A (the main plan) fails. Plan A for Ulfric with Balgruuf is that because he is a true nord, The Jarl of Whiterun will come around to their way of thinking. That fails and plan B has to be enacted.
Exactly my point, plan B only needs to come into effect because Tullius lies and convinces Balgruuf that Ulfric has already initiated plan B. Balgruuf sends the axe after receiving these documents, much to Ulfric's suprise. I can't find the exact quotes, but upon delivering Balgruuf's axe Ulfric says something along the lines of 'I guess I was wrong about him' and then procedes to plan B.
Plan B comes int effect because the axe got misinterpreted. That is the problem. Had Ulfric kept the axe, maybe plan b would not have been needed.

People misinterpret thing in the real world (or so the Ancient Astronaut Theory claims), so why can't a fictional people do the same?
 

Lewsean

Member
OR as I said, it was a plan B, a backup. Backup are set up, but not set into motion until Plan A (the main plan) fails. Plan A for Ulfric with Balgruuf is that because he is a true nord, The Jarl of Whiterun will come around to their way of thinking. That fails and plan B has to be enacted.
Exactly my point, plan B only needs to come into effect because Tullius lies and convinces Balgruuf that Ulfric has already initiated plan B. Balgruuf sends the axe after receiving these documents, much to Ulfric's suprise. I can't find the exact quotes, but upon delivering Balgruuf's axe Ulfric says something along the lines of 'I guess I was wrong about him' and then procedes to plan B.
Plan B comes int effect because the axe got misinterpreted. That is the problem. Had Ulfric kept the axe, maybe plan b would not have been needed.
There was no misinterpretation.. He sent the axe upon receiving false documents about Ulfric's intentions, AFTER he garrisons legion troops in Whiterun. Balgruuf sided with the Empire, so he's an enemy. It's really simple to understand. Thinking the central hold of Skyrim would be simply left out of a civil war was naive IF that was his intention.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Exactly my point, plan B only needs to come into effect because Tullius lies and convinces Balgruuf that Ulfric has already initiated plan B. Balgruuf sends the axe after receiving these documents, much to Ulfric's suprise. I can't find the exact quotes, but upon delivering Balgruuf's axe Ulfric says something along the lines of 'I guess I was wrong about him' and then procedes to plan B.
Plan B comes int effect because the axe got misinterpreted. That is the problem. Had Ulfric kept the axe, maybe plan b would not have been needed.
There was no misinterpretation.. He sent the axe upon receiving false documents about Ulfric's intentions, AFTER he garrisons legion troops in Whiterun. Balgruuf sided with the Empire, so he's an enemy. It's really simple to understand. Thinking the central hold of Skyrim would be simply left out of a civil war was naive IF that was his intention.

Or maybe he was doing a plan B as well. Garrisoning troops of the legion IN CASE the Stormcloaks attacked.
 

Lewsean

Member
Plan B comes int effect because the axe got misinterpreted. That is the problem. Had Ulfric kept the axe, maybe plan b would not have been needed.
There was no misinterpretation.. He sent the axe upon receiving false documents about Ulfric's intentions, AFTER he garrisons legion troops in Whiterun. Balgruuf sided with the Empire, so he's an enemy. It's really simple to understand. Thinking the central hold of Skyrim would be simply left out of a civil war was naive IF that was his intention.

Or maybe he was doing a plan B as well. Garrisoning troops of the legion IN CASE the Stormcloaks attacked.
Nope, he requested the Legion because of the false documents showing an attack was already in motion, when in fact that attack was put in motion AFTER those documents were delivered and Jarl Balgruuf reacted to that information. Tullius and the Legion wanted Whiterun just as much as Ulfric.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
There was no misinterpretation.. He sent the axe upon receiving false documents about Ulfric's intentions, AFTER he garrisons legion troops in Whiterun. Balgruuf sided with the Empire, so he's an enemy. It's really simple to understand. Thinking the central hold of Skyrim would be simply left out of a civil war was naive IF that was his intention.

Or maybe he was doing a plan B as well. Garrisoning troops of the legion IN CASE the Stormcloaks attacked.
Nope, he requested the Legion because of the false documents showing an attack was already in motion, when in fact that attack was put in motion AFTER those documents were delivered and Jarl Balgruuf reacted to that information. Tullius and the Legion wanted Whiterun just as much as Ulfric.

And Ulfric DECIDED to attack. IF he had not, maybe they would have been kicked out.

A "lie" is not a lie if it happens. The Stormcloaks attacked, and the imperials were proven right, no matter what we on these forums say.
 

Lewsean

Member
Or maybe he was doing a plan B as well. Garrisoning troops of the legion IN CASE the Stormcloaks attacked.
Nope, he requested the Legion because of the false documents showing an attack was already in motion, when in fact that attack was put in motion AFTER those documents were delivered and Jarl Balgruuf reacted to that information. Tullius and the Legion wanted Whiterun just as much as Ulfric.

And Ulfric DECIDED to attack. IF he had not, maybe they would have been kicked out.

A "lie" is not a lie if it happens.
It is a lie when said action comes as a result of that lie... If Balgruuf didn't receive false information about Ulfric planning a suprise attack, he wouldn't have been so quick to accept the Empire's help, which in turn would've stopped the attack. Can you not see the knock on effect? He attacked because Jarl B sided with the empire, as a RESULT OF FALSE INFORMATION.

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."
Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."
Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."
Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."
Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."
Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."
Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."
Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."
Rikke: "General."
Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
Rikke: "Yes, sir."
Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
Rikke: "Sir."

Tullis isn't exactly doing anything wrong, just a general trying to garrison a strategic position. But the attack on whiterun was a result of his false information, or rather extremely exagurated information, that much is certain. Jarl B was obviously on the fence, those documents just helped make his mind up, without them he may have chosen to side with Ulfric.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
IT does not matter if it was a lie or not. The Stormcloaks proved it right by attacking, at least as far as Whiterun in concerned. Lie or not, it was made true by an idiotic strategist.
 

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