Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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J

Jeremius

Guest
Torygg was chosen as High King because he was Istlod's heir. The same way Nords have picked High Kings since the Pact of Chieftains after the First War of Succession.
Well there you go, he wasn't chosen because of some political policy he had, he was chosen because he was Istlod's heir and that's it. He wasn't chosen because he would make a good High King he was chosen because of his legacy.


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We do not HOW he would have run Skyrim. If it would be peaceful and everything ran fine, that is the sign of a good high king.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
We do not HOW he would have run Skyrim. If it would be peaceful and everything ran fine, that is the sign of a good high king.
Or if he didn't do anything of significance and bent licked the Empires boots then that's the sign of a bad High King


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Lewsean

Member
Torygg was chosen as High King because he was Istlod's heir. The same way Nords have picked High Kings since the Pact of Chieftains after the First War of Succession.
Well there you go, he wasn't chosen because of some political policy he had, he was chosen because he was Istlod's heir and that's it. He wasn't chosen because he would make a good High King he was chosen because of his legacy.


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We do not HOW he would have run Skyrim. If it would be peaceful and everything ran fine, that is the sign of a good high king.
He was a kid who was more bothered about his wife than anything else.

"When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping."

Nothing about his homeland erupting into Civil War, nothing about anything that should actually matter to a High King.. Just his wife. It's hillarious that people actually support her to be High Queen too, she's so incompetant it isn't even funny. But alas, another puppet ruler is what the Empire wants, not someone who will do as he see's fit.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
We do not HOW he would have run Skyrim. If it would be peaceful and everything ran fine, that is the sign of a good high king.
Or if he didn't do anything of significance and bent licked the Empires boots then that's the sign of a bad High King


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Or that is a stormcloak opinion that means nothing because opinions are based off of nothing.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Or that is a stormcloak opinion that means nothing because opinions are based off of nothing.
That's more than a simple Stormcloak opinion. The general good store owner in Solitude who actually lived in Solitude during the reign of Torygg has the same viewpoint saying that he would always go on an on about the Empire this and the Empire that.


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J

Jeremius

Guest
Or that is a stormcloak opinion that means nothing because opinions are based off of nothing.
That's more than a simple Stormcloak opinion. The general good store owner in Solitude who actually lived in Solitude during the reign of Torygg has the same viewpoint saying that he would always go on an on about the Empire this and the Empire that.


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Going on about the Empire=/=weak or bad high king. It is a simple opinion that means nothing. WHAT MATTERS is HOW the province is run. IF a province is peaceful, then the high king is a good one, and if it is in turmoil, the high king is bad.
 

Lewsean

Member
Or that is a stormcloak opinion that means nothing because opinions are based off of nothing.
That's more than a simple Stormcloak opinion. The general good store owner in Solitude who actually lived in Solitude during the reign of Torygg has the same viewpoint saying that he would always go on an on about the Empire this and the Empire that.


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Going on about the Empire=/=weak or bad high king. It is a simple opinion that means nothing. WHAT MATTERS is HOW the province is run. IF a province is peaceful, then the high king is a good one, and if it is in turmoil, the high king is bad.
A big flaw in your argument is the Stormcloak rebellion.. Obviously he wasn't a good High King if he allowed the patience of his own people to run thin enough that he would be a target. But once again, his own people didn't matter, only keeping the Empire happy.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Or again, he was simply keeping the peace as a good high king would. Emotion clouds judgment making it hard to properly think.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Going on about the Empire=/=weak or bad high king. It is a simple opinion that means nothing. WHAT MATTERS is HOW the province is run. IF a province is peaceful, then the high king is a good one, and if it is in turmoil, the high king is bad.
It's Not so black and white. It depends on what he's done and what his intentions were. Torygg did nothing of note, had no political plan, and was basically a puppet king.


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J

Jeremius

Guest
Going on about the Empire=/=weak or bad high king. It is a simple opinion that means nothing. WHAT MATTERS is HOW the province is run. IF a province is peaceful, then the high king is a good one, and if it is in turmoil, the high king is bad.
It's Not so black and white. It depends on what he's done and what his intentions were. Torygg did nothing of note, had no political plan, and was basically a puppet king.


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BECAUSE we do not know what he did, or if he WOULD have done anything. He was simply declared high king, made a few speeches that mean nothing in the long run, which was enough for ULFRIC to decide to use ancient tradition meant for someone who ACTUALLY did something WRONG, not something one simple person here or there hates.

The fact is that a good high king is simply someone who can do the job properly, not an ULFRIC supporter or someone who runs on emotion all the time.

Torygg does not matter much in the end, because he is dead and therefore CANNOT run Skyrim at all.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
BECAUSE we do not what he did, or if he WOULD have done anything. He was simply declared high king, made a few speeches that mean nothing in the long run, which was enough for ULFRIC to decide to use ancient tradition meant for someone who ACTUALLY did something WRONG, not something one simple person here or there hates.

The fact is that a good high king is simply someone who can do the job properly, not an ULFRIC supporter or someone who runs on emotion all the time.
I don't run on emotion all the time. The act of the matter is the Empire screwed us considerably and is still trying to put a puppet on the throne. At least Ulfric thinks for himself, Elisif has no knowledge as to how to run a HOLD let alone a whole gods damned nation. If you support the Empire you support Elisif that's all there I to it, you don't get a say.


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Lewsean

Member
In the eyes of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks(50%+ of Skyrim...) he did do something wrong.. And that was stand idley by whilst the Empire/Thalmor destroyed everything Skyrim stood for. He wasn't doing his job properly, else nobody would of rebelled.. His father held Skyrim together after the Great War, and still supported the Empire, yet Ulfric see's him as a true Nord and holds the upmost respect for him. Doesn't that tell you something? Two people, seemingly sharing the same views yet judged completely differently by one man.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Going on about the Empire=/=weak or bad high king. It is a simple opinion that means nothing. WHAT MATTERS is HOW the province is run. IF a province is peaceful, then the high king is a good one, and if it is in turmoil, the high king is bad.
It's Not so black and white. It depends on what he's done and what his intentions were. Torygg did nothing of note, had no political plan, and was basically a puppet king.


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Then by your own words, if it's not all black and white, then that also applies to High King Torygg. Sibil Stentor really knew Torygg and paints a very different picture, which needs to be taken into account, not just Ulfric's jealousy of Torygg.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
In the eyes of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks(50%+ of Skyrim...) he did do something wrong.. And that was stand idley by whilst the Empire/Thalmor destroyed everything Skyrim stood for. He wasn't doing his job properly, else nobody would of rebelled.. His father held Skyrim together after the Great War, and still supported the Empire, yet Ulfric see's him as a true Nord and holds the upmost respect for him. Doesn't that tell you something? Two people, seemingly sharing the same views yet judged completely differently by one man.



Correction: 50% +/-
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
BECAUSE we do not what he did, or if he WOULD have done anything. He was simply declared high king, made a few speeches that mean nothing in the long run, which was enough for ULFRIC to decide to use ancient tradition meant for someone who ACTUALLY did something WRONG, not something one simple person here or there hates.

The fact is that a good high king is simply someone who can do the job properly, not an ULFRIC supporter or someone who runs on emotion all the time.
I don't run on emotion all the time. The act of the matter is the Empire screwed us considerably and is still trying to put a puppet on the throne. At least Ulfric thinks for himself, Elisif has no knowledge as to how to run a HOLD let alone a whole gods damned nation. If you support the Empire you support Elisif that's all there I to it, you don't get a say.


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Ulfric killed Torygg because Torygg did not agree with him at the moot, and that is emotion. Ulfric gets upset and almost destroys the peace summit when Elenwen shows up. A good high king would be able to pull himself out of a situation and look at what is best for his people in the long run, not just in one aspect. IF a Jarl had to choose between a village and a farm that is vital to his people's well-being, the logical choice would be the farm, as the village can be rebuilt, but the farm being lost means food that cannot be harvested soon enough to prevent starvation.

I agree that Elisif has no knowledge right now. that does not mean a thing in the long run. A person with no experience or knowledge can learn, while a person that runs on emotion has a hard time looking out for the people's literal well-being.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
In the eyes of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks(50%+ of Skyrim...) he did do something wrong.. And that was stand idley by whilst the Empire/Thalmor destroyed everything Skyrim stood for. He wasn't doing his job properly, else nobody would of rebelled.. His father held Skyrim together after the Great War, and still supported the Empire, yet Ulfric see's him as a true Nord and holds the upmost respect for him. Doesn't that tell you something? Two people, seemingly sharing the same views yet judged completely differently by one man.



But do they? What if, what if Torygg was more honorable than Ulfric, who refused the duel with Jarl B and sent his army instead. What if the Torygg had done the same? Don't tell us how honorable Ulfric isn't.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
BECAUSE we do not what he did, or if he WOULD have done anything. He was simply declared high king, made a few speeches that mean nothing in the long run, which was enough for ULFRIC to decide to use ancient tradition meant for someone who ACTUALLY did something WRONG, not something one simple person here or there hates.

The fact is that a good high king is simply someone who can do the job properly, not an ULFRIC supporter or someone who runs on emotion all the time.
I don't run on emotion all the time. The act of the matter is the Empire screwed us considerably and is still trying to put a puppet on the throne. At least Ulfric thinks for himself, Elisif has no knowledge as to how to run a HOLD let alone a whole gods damned nation. If you support the Empire you support Elisif that's all there I to it, you don't get a say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ulfric killed Torygg because Torygg did not agree with him at the moot, and that is emotion. Ulfric gets upset and almost destroys the peace summit when Elenwen shows up. A good high king would be able to pull himself out of a situation and look at what is best for his people in the long run, not just in one aspect. IF a Jarl had to choose between a village and a farm that is vital to his people's well-being, the logical choice would be the farm, as the village can be rebuilt, but the farm being lost means food that cannot be harvested soon enough to prevent starvation.

I agree that Elisif has no knowledge right now. that does not mean a thing in the long run. A person with no experience or knowledge can learn, while a person that runs on emotion has a hard time looking out for the people's literal well-being.



Jarl Elisif will grow up and the hurtful experiences from Ulfric will have a profound impact on her. I envision she'll be much stronger in the long run, albeit, changed, changed in ways even I might not agree with but most def can relate to.
 

Lewsean

Member
BECAUSE we do not what he did, or if he WOULD have done anything. He was simply declared high king, made a few speeches that mean nothing in the long run, which was enough for ULFRIC to decide to use ancient tradition meant for someone who ACTUALLY did something WRONG, not something one simple person here or there hates.

The fact is that a good high king is simply someone who can do the job properly, not an ULFRIC supporter or someone who runs on emotion all the time.
I don't run on emotion all the time. The act of the matter is the Empire screwed us considerably and is still trying to put a puppet on the throne. At least Ulfric thinks for himself, Elisif has no knowledge as to how to run a HOLD let alone a whole gods damned nation. If you support the Empire you support Elisif that's all there I to it, you don't get a say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ulfric killed Torygg because Torygg did not agree with him at the moot, and that is emotion. Ulfric gets upset and almost destroys the peace summit when Elenwen shows up. A good high king would be able to pull himself out of a situation and look at what is best for his people in the long run, not just in one aspect. IF a Jarl had to choose between a village and a farm that is vital to his people's well-being, the logical choice would be the farm, as the village can be rebuilt, but the farm being lost means food that cannot be harvested soon enough to prevent starvation.

I agree that Elisif has no knowledge right now. that does not mean a thing in the long run. A person with no experience or knowledge can learn, while a person that runs on emotion has a hard time looking out for the people's literal well-being.

She had no business whatsoever being there.. Quite frankly whatever side you support, thinking the Thalmor have any place in a sit down between the Imperials/Stormcloaks is an outrage. Whatever influence she would've had over that meeting would be to create more tension between both people, not to solve anything at all. The fact that Tullius is forced to bring her with him shows what the Empire has become, a god damn companion to the very people who want all men enslaved again.


In the eyes of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks(50%+ of Skyrim...) he did do something wrong.. And that was stand idley by whilst the Empire/Thalmor destroyed everything Skyrim stood for. He wasn't doing his job properly, else nobody would of rebelled.. His father held Skyrim together after the Great War, and still supported the Empire, yet Ulfric see's him as a true Nord and holds the upmost respect for him. Doesn't that tell you something? Two people, seemingly sharing the same views yet judged completely differently by one man.



But do they? What if, what if Torygg was more honorable than Ulfric, who refused the duel with Jarl B and sent his army instead. What if the Torygg had done the same? Don't tell us how honorable Ulfric isn't.
There was no duel even mentioned between Ulfric and Jarl B. And the only reason Jarl B sided with the Empire was through lies constructed by Tullius. Ulfric fully expected Jarl B to support him, they had no quarrel before the battle of Whiterun.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
In the end, Torygg is dead and matters little. Time for a new High King, and one who does not focus on what the emotional response would be, but someone like Jarl Ballin' who sends troops to defend a village that has a saw mill that can provide lumber to the hold.

Torygg could also be strong for the same reasons. He supported the Empire when the other Nords were falling to hatred and emotions. He stood hi ground for his beliefs instead of siding with someone who could be seen as mad. Strength and weakness are subjective and mean absolutely nothing because one person's weakness is another person's strength.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I don't run on emotion all the time. The act of the matter is the Empire screwed us considerably and is still trying to put a puppet on the throne. At least Ulfric thinks for himself, Elisif has no knowledge as to how to run a HOLD let alone a whole gods damned nation. If you support the Empire you support Elisif that's all there I to it, you don't get a say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ulfric killed Torygg because Torygg did not agree with him at the moot, and that is emotion. Ulfric gets upset and almost destroys the peace summit when Elenwen shows up. A good high king would be able to pull himself out of a situation and look at what is best for his people in the long run, not just in one aspect. IF a Jarl had to choose between a village and a farm that is vital to his people's well-being, the logical choice would be the farm, as the village can be rebuilt, but the farm being lost means food that cannot be harvested soon enough to prevent starvation.

I agree that Elisif has no knowledge right now. that does not mean a thing in the long run. A person with no experience or knowledge can learn, while a person that runs on emotion has a hard time looking out for the people's literal well-being.

She had no business whatsoever being there.. Quite frankly whatever side you support, thinking the Thalmor have any place in a sit down between the Imperials/Stormcloaks is an outrage. Whatever influence she would've had over that meeting would be to create more tension between both people, not to solve anything at all. The fact that Tullius is forced to bring her with him shows what the Empire has become, a god damn companion to the very people who want all men enslaved again.



I agree with this. Elenwen's attendance -by itself- pretty much retarded what could have been a fruitful event. Any where the Thalmor are, they will drag the Empire down. Emperor Mede was a good Emperor in his day, however he made a crippling mistake at the end. Perhaps it was necessary, even so and either way, the only way out for the Empire will be to start standing up to the Thalmor, again. And the only way this will happen is if the Empire stands together. There is no quick and easy way out of this, no "fix". Every Province that's walked away from the Empire so far has done so with some kind of Thalmor influence. Therefore, Skyrim leaving will only be kicking the can down the road to where the Thalmor want it to go. No good would come of this.



In the eyes of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks(50%+ of Skyrim...) he did do something wrong.. And that was stand idley by whilst the Empire/Thalmor destroyed everything Skyrim stood for. He wasn't doing his job properly, else nobody would of rebelled.. His father held Skyrim together after the Great War, and still supported the Empire, yet Ulfric see's him as a true Nord and holds the upmost respect for him. Doesn't that tell you something? Two people, seemingly sharing the same views yet judged completely differently by one man.



But do they? What if, what if Torygg was more honorable than Ulfric, who refused the duel with Jarl B and sent his army instead. What if the Torygg had done the same? Don't tell us how honorable Ulfric isn't.
There was no duel even mentioned between Ulfric and Jarl B. And the only reason Jarl B sided with the Empire was through lies constructed by Tullius. Ulfric fully expected Jarl B to support him, they had no quarrel before the battle of Whiterun.




No Duel mentioned? Ulfric gave Jarl B his axe and Jarl B did the same. Ireleth and Jarl B both talk as if there should be a duel, except they know better. Ulfric, rather than face Jarl B, himself, sent his army. Jarl B wasn't decked out in Nord Plate Armor for nothing.
 

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