Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Okay. I'm baaack Ha-Ha Let's do this now.

Been chasing waterfalls the last couple days at work and have not had time to post a complete thought and well, I fig'd we already have enough rambling on here so no need to post a fragment.

Anyways, about this "weakness". Look - Sometimes weakness can be turned into strength as much as strength can be a weakness. Really, it's all about perception. High King Torygg seemed like he was pretty reasonable and perceived the situation for what it is.

The problem I kinda have with Ulfric during that duel, was it's like, he's acting like one of those Hypocritical morons who likes to go around judging everyone *for their own benefit* when he's not really honest with himself and the way that Ulfric has treated his own people.

You know, the duel I *could* possibly understand from Nord logic, but denying what would have been a bi-partisan moot from meeting afterwards is something I cannot understand. It's like, the Stormcloaks and their ilk is always giving the Empire pl*ps, talking about the Empire's *sins* yet, these same self-righteous folks are not honest enough with themselves to admit their own problems.

Not everyone in the Empire is guilty, new leadership is on the way, give the Empire a chance and leave the chip at the door.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Anyways, about this "weakness". Look - Sometimes weakness can be turned into strength as much as strength can be a weakness. Really, it's all about perception. High King Torygg seemed like he was pretty reasonable and perceived the situation for what it is.


I have been trying to say thing for a few posts now. Perception/opinion are all basically nothing and arguing over opinions and perceptions are pointless in the long run.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Who has come to the Empires aid? Noone, and nobody will because like I've said time and time again, the Empire sold out it's people prior and after the Great War.

Uh what? The Empire isn't seeking aid from other provinces. Ulfric is the one hoping that High Rock would side with him. The Empire is barely involved in Skyrim.

Tullius' Legion is part of the 'real' millitary.

Tullius doesn't have a Legion. He has several Auxiliary Legions, who Rikke calls "militia"

I don't see what your point is about fighting the whole of Cyrodill being a bad thing? Of course it is, that doesn't make it any less right. You know what does annoy me, is the emphasis on the Stormcloaks and how they should use their brains and stop fighting, yet not once do you mention the fact that the Empire is fighting too.

The Empire is fighting because their hand was forced when Ulfric killed Torygg. The Stormcloaks are unable to see they're being played, and merely blame the Empire for all their woes.

I didn't mean it in that way. I meant just because the Empire is out of Skyrim doesn't mean the Elves will flood the border in an instant like most people seem to beleive.

Who believes that? No one here has mentioned Elves will flood Skyrim. The Thalmor will take greater interest in Skyrim obviously, but they won't invade, they'll do what they always do.

Without a legitimate reason to be there, they would have no garrison's, no prisons, nothing.. How do you expect them to run local interference with no base of operations?

Do you even know how the Thalmor operate? "Legitimate reason" they don't care about that. They infiltrate and conduct espionage. They don't need huge garrisons or prisons, nor even a large base.

So Ulfric can't attack, but the Empire can? My statement was about the defensive advantages of Skyrim's landscape, not what Ulfric intends to do...

Ulfric needs the Empire to attack, he has no other way of reaching the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire can attack because their Military is already on the Dominion's border.

Trade is already heavily taxed to support the Empire's war effort. You talk bout it like Skyrim is some barren wasteland with no food source whatsoever and the might Empire is the ONLY source for this? You know as well as I do that's 100% false. Besides, the EETC is largely independant and their main trading source is raw materials, not food.

Skyrim mostly is barren wasteland, they have sources of food naturally. Farms are known to struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. Food and resources from the Empire is one thing, which would basically be free. The EETC Warehouse says differ. They trade nearly everything.

The EETC is independent, but they're Imperial backed and financed.

I'll admit I am enjoying this debate, giving me a run for my money.
 

Lewsean

Member
Who has come to the Empires aid? Noone, and nobody will because like I've said time and time again, the Empire sold out it's people prior and after the Great War.

Uh what? The Empire isn't seeking aid from other provinces. Ulfric is the one hoping that High Rock would side with him. The Empire is barely involved in Skyrim.

Maybe not right now, but they WILL need aid from the very people they let down when they needed the Empire most. Hammerfell and Skyrim are perhaps the two most vauable people for the Empire to have on side, but the treaty destroyed both relationships and the Emperor was too foolish to see this.

Tullius' Legion is part of the 'real' millitary.

Tullius doesn't have a Legion. He has several Auxiliary Legions, who Rikke calls "militia"

He does, he's the general of the Fourth Legion, which was placed in Skyrim under his command during the Civil War. Legions are bolstered by auxilliries, not made up by them.

I don't see what your point is about fighting the whole of Cyrodill being a bad thing? Of course it is, that doesn't make it any less right. You know what does annoy me, is the emphasis on the Stormcloaks and how they should use their brains and stop fighting, yet not once do you mention the fact that the Empire is fighting too.

The Empire is fighting because their hand was forced when Ulfric killed Torygg. The Stormcloaks are unable to see they're being played, and merely blame the Empire for all their woes.

Both sides are being played so to speak, the Thalmor are doing AYTHING to prolong this war as long as possible.

I didn't mean it in that way. I meant just because the Empire is out of Skyrim doesn't mean the Elves will flood the border in an instant like most people seem to beleive.

Who believes that? No one here has mentioned Elves will flood Skyrim. The Thalmor will take greater interest in Skyrim obviously, but they won't invade, they'll do what they always do.

My point exactly. Every Imperial you speak too will sooner or later mention how the Empire is the only one keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim as in if they left Skyrim would instantly fall, when we know that isn't true, they are in fact the only reason the Thalmor can openly be in Skyrim and enforce the Concordat, whether that's to keep the Dominion on side for now or not the Empire is still using it's people to prolong it's self. The Northern regions of Tamriel would stand a much greater chance of defeating the Thalmor if they worked together, but neither of the regions apart from maybe High Rock have any faith left in the Empire at all.

Without a legitimate reason to be there, they would have no garrison's, no prisons, nothing.. How do you expect them to run local interference with no base of operations?

Do you even know how the Thalmor operate? "Legitimate reason" they don't care about that. They infiltrate and conduct espionage. They don't need huge garrisons or prisons, nor even a large base.

That may be true, but like I tried to explain before, without a legal reason to be in Skyrim any operation they wish to conduct will be insanely difficult and any intelligence they wish to pass on will be even harder without a legal system from The Summerset Isles to the North of Tamriel. The ONLY way to get to TSI from Skyrim is by Sea, or through Cyrodill by the road south out of Skyrim. I'm no expert but I'm sure it would be next to impossible to infiltrate one border.

So Ulfric can't attack, but the Empire can? My statement was about the defensive advantages of Skyrim's landscape, not what Ulfric intends to do...

Ulfric needs the Empire to attack, he has no other way of reaching the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire can attack because their Military is already on the Dominion's border.

Then why in gods name do the Empire insist on fighting Skyrim instead of saying "Hey look guys, I know what we did was a dick move but look, we hate them too and we need you to invade with us". This is why I feel the Empire is being played or are just as idiotic as the Stormcloaks.

Trade is already heavily taxed to support the Empire's war effort. You talk bout it like Skyrim is some barren wasteland with no food source whatsoever and the might Empire is the ONLY source for this? You know as well as I do that's 100% false. Besides, the EETC is largely independant and their main trading source is raw materials, not food.

Skyrim mostly is barren wasteland, they have sources of food naturally. Farms are known to struggle by with the exception of Rorikstead. Food and resources from the Empire is one thing, which would basically be free. The EETC Warehouse says differ. They trade nearly everything.

The EETC is independent, but they're Imperial backed and financed.

Riften's economy is actually booming right now from the production of Fish and Mead. Also the EETC being independent is very important, as like you say they are backed by Imperial coin but sooner or later the Emperor won't be able to afford to back the EETC if they hold just one province, so being mainly a mercentile group they won't show 'loyalty' so to speak but rather they will go where the coin is. Also Skyrim is a Tundra not a wasteland, many sources of food and natural materials are available and any trade that needs to be done can still happen without the support of the Empire, which like I keep trying to reiterate, only has one province and no say whatsoever on trading throughout Tamriel. The Empire simply doesn't have the strength to raise trade taxes and deny trading routes all together anymore.

I'll admit I am enjoying this debate, giving me a run for my money.

Yeah me too man, you make some very good points that require quite a bit of time to build a reply for :p



Edit: Oh and guys, Toyrgg was 'weak' by Skyrim High King standards.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Edit: Oh and guys, Toyrgg was 'weak' by Skyrim High King standards.


Incorrect. This is logical fallacy. High King Torygg recv'd his authority from the Moot. Therefore, it could only be legit undone by the Moot. By Ulfric bypassing the Moot not once during the duel but twice afterwards, proves that he has no respect for the Moot, which includes Stormcloak Jarls.

No, Ulfric deceived High King Torygg, who was young, in love and impressionable. Youth is not weakness, it is youth. Ulfric is a liar and a traitor and somehow I don't think God would want me following someone like that. The Empire is up front and honest with you about everything, which I would rather someone be honest with me and tell what I don't want to hear, rather than someone else giving me false hope and promises.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
In the end, for everyone arguing over weakness, Torygg was High King under the Empire, and the position is a position of IMPERIAL Authority. Strength and weakness are not important except in an opinion.

Likely if the situation was reversed, and Torygg killed Ulfric, Torygg may have been seen as the strong one and Ulfric the weak one. This is not Necessarily true, as Torygg would actually be the lucky high king.
 

Lewsean

Member
In the end, for everyone arguing over weakness, Torygg was High King under the Empire, and the position is a position of IMPERIAL Authority. Strength and weakness are not important except in an opinion.

Likely if the situation was reversed, and Torygg killed Ulfric, Torygg may have been seen as the strong one and Ulfric the weak one. This is not Necessarily true, as Torygg would actually be the lucky high king.
High King under the Empire, exactly my point.. He was chosen because he would provide no problems for the Emperor, not because of his ability. Also the High King is NOT an imperial position, it's a position that was started with the first Empire of men, which was created by the Nords.

Edit: Oh and guys, Toyrgg was 'weak' by Skyrim High King standards.


Incorrect. This is logical fallacy. High King Torygg recv'd his authority from the Moot. Therefore, it could only be legit undone by the Moot. By Ulfric bypassing the Moot not once during the duel but twice afterwards, proves that he has no respect for the Moot, which includes Stormcloak Jarls.

No, Ulfric deceived High King Torygg, who was young, in love and impressionable. Youth is not weakness, it is youth. Ulfric is a liar and a traitor and somehow I don't think God would want me following someone like that. The Empire is up front and honest with you about everything, which I would rather someone be honest with me and tell what I don't want to hear, rather than someone else giving me false hope and promises.
Young, in love and impressionable.. That is a weak King. What has Ulfric lied about, and who did he betray? The Moot in it's current state is a joke, gold is all that matters when deciding. A trend that keeps appearing with Imperial Jarls, gold gold gold.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Incorrect. This is logical fallacy. High King Torygg recv'd his authority from the Moot. Therefore, it could only be legit undone by the Moot. By Ulfric bypassing the Moot not once during the duel but twice afterwards, proves that he has no respect for the Moot, which includes Stormcloak Jarls.

No, Ulfric deceived High King Torygg, who was young, in love and impressionable. Youth is not weakness, it is youth. Ulfric is a liar and a traitor and somehow I don't think God would want me following someone like that. The Empire is up front and honest with you about everything, which I would rather someone be honest with me and tell what I don't want to hear, rather than someone else giving me false hope and promises.
Young, in love and impressionable.. That is a weak King. What has Ulfric lied about, and who did he betray? The Moot in it's current state is a joke, gold is all that matters when deciding. A trend that keeps appearing with Imperial Jarls, gold gold gold.



The statement above re-enforces what I was talking about earlier.

Jarl ermm... what's his name... Jarl of that place... uhh... drawing a total blank here. The hold between Solitude and Winterhold. He took over the position of Jarl as a child. Furthermore, there's nothing in Nord culture preventing a young person from taking over a position of authority.

So that's BS about Torygg being weak because he was young. Younger people are usually more compassionate anyways, are not *set* in their ways like some people are.

Ulfric is a liar. He claims to be doing what's best for Skyrim yet prevents the moot from meeting. Even Ralof admits the cause is about Ulfric being given what he "deserves" ie... Ulfric being "The Rightful High King of Skyrim".

Not every Jarl is going to agree, that's the purpose of the Moot, so everyone can sit down around a kitchen table and decide on something without violence. At least 50% of Skyrim does not favor Ulfric. After Torygg's death, a bi-partisan Moot could have met and worked out their differences. By not allowing the Moot to meet after Torygg's death, Ulfric committed High Treason against Skyrim by willfully throwing the Provincial Gov into chaos, disregarding not just Imperial Law, but Nord tradition in the process.

Furthermore, Ulfric is not being truthful about his foreign policy, saying at Windhelm about how he's tired of fighting wars on foreign soil and then in the end at Solitude, tells a different story.

What do you have against people who have money? Jarl B is spending all his gold on the military. This is just like Democrats accusing Republicans of greed, when they themselves have just as much money. Do you think it's your place as a "Freedom Fighter" to confiscate this gold and "re-distribute" it as you see fit?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
High Kings should also RUN on logic, not emotion. That is a weakness because emotion clouds judement and decision making. That is why I think Ulfric would be a weak high king. I have failed to see him actually make logical choices in terms of actual situations in Skyrim.

It does not matter who the High King is allied with, as long as he can keep his emotions out of the decision-making process.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
High Kings should also RUN on logic, not emotion. That is a weakness because emotion clouds judement and decision making. That is why I think Ulfric would be a weak high king. I have failed to see him actually make logical choices in terms of actual situations in Skyrim.

It does not matter who the High King is allied with, as long as he can keep his emotions out of the decision-making process.



Gold Star. "Season Unending" is a good illustration.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
High Kings should also RUN on logic, not emotion. That is a weakness because emotion clouds judement and decision making. That is why I think Ulfric would be a weak high king. I have failed to see him actually make logical choices in terms of actual situations in Skyrim.

It does not matter who the High King is allied with, as long as he can keep his emotions out of the decision-making process.



Gold Star. "Season Unending" is a good illustration.

There is a reason the Jedi Code in Star Wars says "There is no emotion, there is peace."
 

Ivory

Let's Player
There is a reason the Jedi Code in Star Wars says "There is no emotion, there is peace."


Which conflicts with itself when there is almost never any peace, unlike star trek where despite human emotions they've strive for true peace throughout their galaxies. One could argue because they bottle up their emotions in the star wars universe it leads to its own destruction.

That's a whole other topic though. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
There is a reason the Jedi Code in Star Wars says "There is no emotion, there is peace."


Which conflicts with itself when there is almost never any peace, unlike star trek where despite human emotions they've strive for true peace throughout their galaxies. One could argue because they bottle up their emotions in the star wars universe it leads to its own destruction.

That's a whole other topic though. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.

I was taking the essence of it, actually. The idea is that Emotion and Passion are clouding factors in making choices. At peace, or not allowing emotions to control, you can make the right choice needed.

I think Torygg was a weak high King, but only because he is a dead high king and, thus, cannot run his hold. Not because he was young or an imperial supporter or any stormcloak argument.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
There is a reason the Jedi Code in Star Wars says "There is no emotion, there is peace."


Which conflicts with itself when there is almost never any peace, unlike star trek where despite human emotions they've strive for true peace throughout their galaxies. One could argue because they bottle up their emotions in the star wars universe it leads to its own destruction.

That's a whole other topic though. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.

I was taking the essence of it, actually. The idea is that Emotion and Passion are clouding factors in making choices. At peace, or not allowing emotions to control, you can make the right choice needed.

I think Torygg was a weak high King, but only because he is a dead high king and, thus, cannot run his hold. Not because he was young or an imperial supporter or any stormcloak argument.



images
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
In the end, the "weakness" of Torygg is because he is dead. Dead=weak in the eyes of some people. This is a pointless thought, as anyone can thus be weak if they die to someone better than them in something.
Ate not why he's weak he's weak because he let The Enoire walk all over hin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Crap that. His father also supported the Empire even after the WGC was approved by the Emperor. Ulfric states during one his speeches at Windhelm how Torygg's father Istlod was a true Nord.

So then, even with the WGC, Torygg's father Istlod, who held Skyrim together because he supported the Empire was still a true Nord according to Ulfric Stormcloak. Therefore, High King Torygg was just fine for his support of the Empire, as his father did.

Funny how Ulfric can deceive and shout down a young man but won't stand up to anyone else, not Istlod, not Jarl B and not Gen T.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Which conflicts with itself when there is almost never any peace, unlike star trek where despite human emotions they've strive for true peace throughout their galaxies. One could argue because they bottle up their emotions in the star wars universe it leads to its own destruction.

That's a whole other topic though. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.

I was taking the essence of it, actually. The idea is that Emotion and Passion are clouding factors in making choices. At peace, or not allowing emotions to control, you can make the right choice needed.

I think Torygg was a weak high King, but only because he is a dead high king and, thus, cannot run his hold. Not because he was young or an imperial supporter or any stormcloak argument.



images

Funny, pal.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Maybe not right now, but they WILL need aid from the very people they let down when they needed the Empire most. Hammerfell and Skyrim are perhaps the two most vauable people for the Empire to have on side, but the treaty destroyed both relationships and the Emperor was too foolish to see this.

Relationship with Skyrim is tensioned via Ulfric Stormcloak. Hammerfell while they are indeed valuable, can restore relations with the Empire far more easily than they would Skyrim. Hammerfell and Skyrim never get along.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the Emperor, treaties aren't handled by the Emperors. The Elder Council wrote up the treaty, but to remove it they would need Titus II who is reluctant to involve himself where he's leading battle.

Titus II was dealt a crap hand to begin with, his actions during the Great War spared the Empire to fight another day.

He does, he's the general of the Fourth Legion, which was placed in Skyrim under his command during the Civil War. Legions are bolstered by auxilliries, not made up by them.

He isn't. Tullius is the Military Governor, he commands several 'Militia' Legions in Skyrim Also the "Fourth Legion" is false, as it was something written on wiki without anything to back it up. In-game or out of game, the Fourth Legion has never been mentioned.

In Skyrim there are no standard Legions, they all went south to the Aldmeri Dominion's border. Skyrim maintained a small garrison when Ulfric's rebellion struck, so 99% of their forces are locally recruited. Listening to their conversations they all speak of joining very recently.

If the Stormcloaks were fighting a normal Legion, it would be a very different story.

My point exactly. Every Imperial you speak too will sooner or later mention how the Empire is the only one keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim as in if they left Skyrim would instantly fall, when we know that isn't true, they are in fact the only reason the Thalmor can openly be in Skyrim and enforce the Concordat, whether that's to keep the Dominion on side for now or not the Empire is still using it's people to prolong it's self. The Northern regions of Tamriel would stand a much greater chance of defeating the Thalmor if they worked together, but neither of the regions apart from maybe High Rock have any faith left in the Empire at all.

The Thalmor don't require an open presence, to truly "push" them out of Skyrim. You need to defeat Summerset Isle. The Empire is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim, should the Empire fall. There would be little keeping the Aldmeri Dominion to flood into other regions.

The Empire has a good chance with the Thalmor, because both use espionage and assassination. The Stormcloaks don't have anything to combat the Thalmor in that type of warfare. Skyrim is actually a very fragile place, should Ulfric die, it would be civil war once more.

"True, I may meet my end in a dark alley with a dagger in my back..." - Ulfric Stormcloak

The problem the Stormcloaks make is, instead of keeping one standing army. They plan to create nine, and every Jarl gets his/her own army. Looking at the Stormcloak Jarls, do you honestly believe they could elect someone else?

That may be true, but like I tried to explain before, without a legal reason to be in Skyrim any operation they wish to conduct will be insanely difficult and any intelligence they wish to pass on will be even harder without a legal system from The Summerset Isles to the North of Tamriel. The ONLY way to get to TSI from Skyrim is by Sea, or through Cyrodill by the road south out of Skyrim. I'm no expert but I'm sure it would be next to impossible to infiltrate one border.

They've been infiltrating the Empire for over a hundred and fifty years. You already come across one Nord working for the Thalmor, there will always be more. You should never underestimate the Thalmor. The Blades did and the Empire did.

People who do know about the Thalmor, can tell you it true. I think one NPC mentions "You can never be too paranoid when the Thalmor are concerned"

It isn't hard to get into Skyrim, there is an Altmer in Windhelm who mentions she came off the boat from Summerset Isle.

Then why in gods name do the Empire insist on fighting Skyrim instead of saying "Hey look guys, I know what we did was a dick move but look, we hate them too and we need you to invade with us". This is why I feel the Empire is being played or are just as idiotic as the Stormcloaks.

The Empire didn't want to get involved. The rebellion had been going on for years, the Empire only stepped in when Torygg was killed several months ago.

Ulfric killing Torygg and going into complete open rebellion, forces the Empire to step in. Due to the political situation of it all, it can cause a domino effect. If one ruler can get away with killing their liege and getting rewarded for it by an Empire who appears weak they couldn't even try to stop it. What about all the various other Lords in the provinces who go "Hey, I want a better castle, I want more land."

Ulfric won't make peace with the Empire, he's hated them ever since his father died. Look at it this way, majority of Ulfric's supporters are completely anti Empire. Would they support him if he made a deal with the Empire to get the throne?

The Thalmor are stirring up people against the Empire on purpose, because the Empire is getting close to being ready for war. Should talk to the Thalmor, they talk extremely bad about the Empire. I've seen Stormcloaks showing the quotes from Thalmor Justiciars in this thread, because they just eat up everything the Thalmor say.

To me, the Empire was planning ahead, they play all nice to the Thalmor. But with their other hand, they're setting themselves up for the next war. When the Legion retakes Riften, they mention they have a staging point into Morrowind just in case. The Imperials are covering their rear, the Stormcloaks haven't shown any real strategic sense other than "we're taking our entire army over to the Aldmeri Dominion!"

Riften's economy is actually booming right now from the production of Fish and Mead. Also the EETC being independent is very important, as like you say they are backed by Imperial coin but sooner or later the Emperor won't be able to afford to back the EETC if they hold just one province, so being mainly a mercentile group they won't show 'loyalty' so to speak but rather they will go where the coin is. Also Skyrim is a Tundra not a wasteland, many sources of food and natural materials are available and any trade that needs to be done can still happen without the support of the Empire, which like I keep trying to reiterate, only has one province and no say whatsoever on trading throughout Tamriel. The Empire simply doesn't have the strength to raise trade taxes and deny trading routes all together anymore.

Riften is actually extremely poor, as mentioned in conversations from the Jarl. The EETC has ports in every single province, they make money for the Empire. The EETC denied trade to half of Skyrim due to a few pirates. They're raising prices on Morrowind, most likely simply out of spite.

Skyrim is a harsh land, farming is hard work and a lot of the time crops apparently fail. With the only exception of Rorikstead which will always do well. Skyrim has a lot of resources, but they've always had allies or holdings in other provinces. Ulfric is taking Skyrim back to before the Empire, without expanding their holdings to include the fertile farmlands they once held.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
High King under the Empire, exactly my point.. He was chosen because he would provide no problems for the Emperor, not because of his ability. Also the High King is NOT an imperial position, it's a position that was started with the first Empire of men, which was created by the Nords.

Torygg was chosen as High King because he was Istlod's heir. The same way Nords have picked High Kings since the Pact of Chieftains after the First War of Succession.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Torygg was chosen as High King because he was Istlod's heir. The same way Nords have picked High Kings since the Pact of Chieftains after the First War of Succession.
Well there you go, he wasn't chosen because of some political policy he had, he was chosen because he was Istlod's heir and that's it. He wasn't chosen because he would make a good High King he was chosen because of his legacy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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