Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Elenwen even admits from her statement that the Thalmor wouldn't think of interfering with the civil war... so my question is... What reason does she need to be there if her government is not getting involved in the civil war?

Well the Stormcloaks believe that for sure. Her prints are all over the Civil War, but during that peace council... Elenwen should really be sitting over on the other side next to Galmar and Ulfric. The Stormcloaks would have been eliminated long ago if it wasn't for the Thalmor getting Ulfric out of the many ambushes before Tullius arrived.

Why would you want to kick Elenwen out Raijin? If it wasn't for her, your cause would have ended long ago.

"We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming."

The Stormcloaks are the real puppets of the Thalmor, they're twenty steps behind everyone and are too ignorant to just stop and realize they're being played. Say what you will about the Imperials, at least they're smart enough to know the Thalmor are behind things.

What do you mean Vignar wont help unless there is a peace treaty? You would need to be a Stormcloaks and had just finished giving Whiterun to Ulfric. I assume you're talking about the unfinished civil war questline, and going to forwards with the main quest? Because I've never had Vignar reject my help to capture a dragon in his hold.


Balgruuf doesn't reject you if you finish the Civil War too. It is still there, can't ignore one and condemn the other.

"I want to help you, Dragonborn. And I will. But I need your help first. What do you think the Imperials would be doing while this dragon is busy slaughtering my men? No. I can't risk weakening the city while we are under the threat of enemy attack. I'm sorry." - Vignar Gray-Mane

By your own logic, Stormcloak Whiterun is paranoid and willing to delay the Dragonborn just like Balgruuf. So you've just created an argument that condemns your own side also.

Do you think Alduin wasn't feeding off the souls that died prior to the civil war? Nords die all the time from bear attack, Forsowrn, etc. He wasn't just feeding all of the dead Nords from the result of the civil war.

The Civil War is feeding him the most, it was a constant supply. Why do you think Alduin attacked Helgen? Just because it was there? Even the Thalmor figured out the Dragon wanted the Civil War to continue.

Why do you ignore the obvious? Ulfric himself destroys your argument.

"And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater" - Ulfric

"Even now, he devours the souls of your fallen comrades! He grows more powerful with every soldier slain in your pointless war!" - Esbern

Don't you wish? I'll never give up... never SURRENDER!

At this point you're not even providing the Stormcloak side with a valid argument.
 

Lewsean

Member
95% of the Legion members you kill are Imperials, I can't remember any being a Nord to be honest but I won't say 100% to be safe. The only one being Rikke, and you see her, the other two legate's you don't see in war.

Maybe for a single play through they were. The game generates the soldiers between the races. The Legion in Skyrim is recruiting locally, the number of Nords increases. Conversations from Ulfric and Rikke hint that a lot of the time it is Nord vs Nord.
But Balgruuf specifically states using Tullius' legions instead of his own warriors to fight Ulfric, and the legion, according to the wiki, is mostly made up of Imperials with the few nords coming from, like you said, recent local recruiting. Going by this information I'd say that killing the Stormcloaks and Ulfric is more benefitial to Alduin than fighting the Empire.

People make the mistake of looking at this debate the wrong way. If the Empire is all high and mighty, why are they wasting resources trying to quell a rebellion caused by their own cowardice rather than appealing with the people who's lives they are playing with? All this poor talk of the Empire and how stretched they are and how they're doing everything to keep the Thalmor out of Skyrim, yet they willingly allow citizens of the Empire to be taken and tortured without doing a SINGLE thing to stop it, how do you expect to gain the support and trust of a people you willingly allow to be kidnapped and tortured? They're in it for them selves only, the only reason they care about Skyrim is strategic and financial gain..
If Skyrim had nothing to offer, it would of been abandoned during the war with the rest of Tamriel, simply because it didn't effect the privileged few in Cyrodill, a Cyrodill that wouldn't be standing if it weren't for General Jonna and his Nord legion. The only Nation that stayed true to the Empire were royally fluffed over. It all boils down to a proud warrior race having there traditions and customs abolished by a tyrannical government, only to be labeled traitors and be hunted for wanting to live there life the way they always have. The 'murder' of the high king was justified within their own laws and customs, but because it effects the Empire and there hold over Skyrim they totally ignore it and class Ulfric as a murderer. I see no reason for the Empire to even exist at this point, every action they take is a benefit to the Thalmor.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
44742.jpg
LegateFasendil said:
Well you backed yourself into a corner on that one Raijin, didn't you?!?? XD​
Don't you wish? I'll never give up... never SURRENDER!


Ultimately, I would have wished for both sides to be able to sit down around a kitchen table and work it out, leave as friends and the war to end.

As for your Surrender, that doesn't matter. I doubt the "Emperor" would accept it anyways, ;)

"The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance."
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Well the Stormcloaks believe that for sure. Her prints are all over the Civil War, but during that peace council... Elenwen should really be sitting over on the other side next to Galmar and Ulfric. The Stormcloaks would have been eliminated long ago if it wasn't for the Thalmor getting Ulfric out of the many ambushes before Tullius arrived.

Why would you want to kick Elenwen out Raijin? If it wasn't for her, your cause would have ended long ago.

"We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming."

The Stormcloaks are the real puppets of the Thalmor, they're twenty steps behind everyone and are too ignorant to just stop and realize they're being played. Say what you will about the Imperials, at least they're smart enough to know the Thalmor are behind things.


Why should Elenwen be sitting over on the other side of the table next to Galmar and Ulfric when shes in the correct seat, next to the Empire? According to the data her association with Ulfric are foe and with Tullius shes confident. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for Elenwen to be hanging out with the enemy. Its illogical. It's non existence.

Why would I kick her out? Because she doesn't belong there. How difficult is that to comprehend? The Thalmor has no affiliation with the Dragonborn, nor are they lending out support to him for dealing with the Dragon situation. The meeting was to halt the civil war. The Stormcloaks and the Empire. The only way that I would accept her presence is if the Thalmor, under the agreement of the White-Gold Concordat, that the Emperor agreed to give a certain percentage of ownership of his government to the Thalmor. If that would of occurred then yes. She has the right to be there, since they have partial ownership of the Empire.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000d950d
"I'm here to ensure that General Tullius does not exceed his authority." -Elenwen


Balgruuf doesn't reject you if you finish the Civil War too. It is still there, can't ignore one and condemn the other.

"I want to help you, Dragonborn. And I will. But I need your help first. What do you think the Imperials would be doing while this dragon is busy slaughtering my men? No. I can't risk weakening the city while we are under the threat of enemy attack. I'm sorry." - Vignar Gray-Mane

By your own logic, Stormcloak Whiterun is paranoid and willing to delay the Dragonborn just like Balgruuf. So you've just created an argument that condemns your own side also.


If you read my post I clearly said that I was not aware of Vignar doing the same thing Balgruuf did. It was an innocent act of a misinterpretation. At no point was I ignoring it.

Either way now I know, from you, that Vignar does the same. Logically speaking as the Dragonborn what is the most logic thing to do? Deal with the Civil war or deal with a big black giant dragon that wants you dead? You would go ahead and deal with Alduin first, and not deal with the petty civil war.

The Civil War is feeding him the most, it was a constant supply. Why do you think Alduin attacked Helgen? Just because it was there? Even the Thalmor figured out the Dragon wanted the Civil War to continue.

Why do you ignore the obvious? Ulfric himself destroys your argument.

"And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater" - Ulfric

"Even now, he devours the souls of your fallen comrades! He grows more powerful with every soldier slain in your pointless war!" - Esbern


At this point you're not even providing the Stormcloak side with a valid argument.

So by your logic Alduin ate up all of the "Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion." and so now hes starting to munch on the civil war souls? Sovngarde is full of souls from Nords who have perished. Don't mistake game mechanics from reality. I find it hard to believe that he had devoured them all.

Oh come on. I find it hard to believe that Alduin attacked Helgan just to keep the civil war going. That's complete and utter nonsense. I know you, Drunkenmage. And I know that you can't possibly be serious by saying this. Do you honestly believe that Alduin gives a plops about the Civil war? No. What he cares about is killing the Dragonborn, which he possessively believes he has that right, and not the Imperial Legion.

You're reading too much of what severely depressed Ulfric and the highly annoyed Esbern said. Ulfric is weeping in defeat and Esbern got tired of the rambling that was going on, and so what he said was a polite way of saying STFU to Tullius and Ulfric.
 

Lewsean

Member
-snip way to long a post


Honestly? Killing anyone feeds Alduin. SO whenever you kill badits or criminals of any kind, you are feeding him.
It's clearly stated he absorbs souls from Sovngarde. No Elves/Beast Race's go to Sovngarde and it's debatable whether or not any race of men except Nords go there.. So using that logic, I can only come to the conclusion fighting the side that isn't purely Nord is the best way to go.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Ultimately, I would have wished for both sides to be able to sit down around a kitchen table and work it out, leave as friends and the war to end.

As for your Surrender, that doesn't matter. I doubt the "Emperor" would accept it anyways, ;)

"The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance."

I can most definitely agree to this statement. In a real life POV the Stormcloaks and the Empire are both idiots... fighting against each other is exactly what the Thalmor wants. They're both playing the Thalmors games, and giving them what they want . Warmingering Tullius even acknowledges it, and he's still playing their games. Hes a very good obedient pet to the Thalmor I can assure you of that.

I am here defending the Stormcloaks because I'm obligated to do so... since nobody else has the ambition to it.

Your Queen Commands

I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us.
Queen Ayrenn

If Queen Ayrenn was queen and the currently leader of the Aldmeri dominion in the present day.... I would of been a loyal Aldmeri Domonion supporter.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
-snip way to long a post


Honestly? Killing anyone feeds Alduin. SO whenever you kill badits or criminals of any kind, you are feeding him.
It's clearly stated he absorbs souls from Sovngarde. No Elves/Beast Race's go to Sovngarde and it's debatable whether or not any race of men except Nords go there.. So using that logic, I can only come to the conclusion fighting the side that isn't purely Nord is the best way to go.

You kill nord bandits just as much as elf/beastfolk bandits.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Ultimately, I would have wished for both sides to be able to sit down around a kitchen table and work it out, leave as friends and the war to end.
As for your Surrender, that doesn't matter. I doubt the "Emperor" would accept it anyways, ;)

"The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance."

I can most definitely agree to this statement. In a real life POV the Stormcloaks and the Empire are both idiots... fighting against each other is exactly what the Thalmor wants. They're both playing the Thalmors games, and giving them what they want . Warmingering Tullius even acknowledges it, and he's still playing their games. Hes a very good obedient pet to the Thalmor I can assure you of that.

I am here defending the Stormcloaks because I'm obligated to do so... since nobody else has the ambition to it.

Your Queen Commands

I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us.
Queen Ayrenn

If Queen Ayrenn was queen and the currently leader of the Aldmeri dominion in the present day.... I would of been a loyal Aldmeri Domonion supporter.


Hmm. Interesting.

So, let me get this straight just so I understand. Are you... Stormcloak or Thalmor? Perhaps a paradox of both somehow?

I would *imagine* that a Sr Stormcloak rep would not want hisself assoc with Thalmor. Or maybe not, I've never really defended the Stormcloaks on much of anything, so I wouldn't know. ;)
 

Lewsean

Member
Honestly? Killing anyone feeds Alduin. SO whenever you kill badits or criminals of any kind, you are feeding him.
It's clearly stated he absorbs souls from Sovngarde. No Elves/Beast Race's go to Sovngarde and it's debatable whether or not any race of men except Nords go there.. So using that logic, I can only come to the conclusion fighting the side that isn't purely Nord is the best way to go.

You kill nord bandits just as much as elf/beastfolk bandits.
Sovngarde is for the honoured dead, not common bandits.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Ultimately, I would have wished for both sides to be able to sit down around a kitchen table and work it out, leave as friends and the war to end.
As for your Surrender, that doesn't matter. I doubt the "Emperor" would accept it anyways, ;)

"The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance."

I can most definitely agree to this statement. In a real life POV the Stormcloaks and the Empire are both idiots... fighting against each other is exactly what the Thalmor wants. They're both playing the Thalmors games, and giving them what they want . Warmingering Tullius even acknowledges it, and he's still playing their games. Hes a very good obedient pet to the Thalmor I can assure you of that.

I am here defending the Stormcloaks because I'm obligated to do so... since nobody else has the ambition to it.

Your Queen Commands

I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us.
Queen Ayrenn

If Queen Ayrenn was queen and the currently leader of the Aldmeri dominion in the present day.... I would of been a loyal Aldmeri Domonion supporter.


Hmm. Interesting.

So, let me get this straight just so I understand. Are you... Stormcloak or Thalmor? Perhaps a paradox of both somehow?

I would *imagine* that a Sr Stormcloak rep would not want hisself assoc with Thalmor. Or maybe not, I've never really defended the Stormcloaks on much of anything, so I wouldn't know. ;)

My opinions have changed since the beginning of this thread. I can't say that I'm a diehard supreme Stormcloak supporter like I use to. I can reason with them and I support their passion to gain independence from the Empire in Skyrim, which is why I continue to defend them as much as I can, and with the resources that Bethesda has given to me to use for defending them.

No I don't support the Thalmor, however I do support the first Aldmeri Dominion. With the way Warmongering Tullius and Ulfric are acting further proves with what Queen Ayrenn said on her partial letter:

"I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims."

and "The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason."

I don't know if ESO is considered canon but on the Ebonheart Pact with race of the Nords, Dunmer and the Argonians... The alliance was reluctantly formed out of necessity; despite the three warlike races' ancestral hatred for each other, they recognized the threat posed by their unified enemies and banded together to protect their borders.

With the Thalmor gaining a swelling amount of support, and with the Aldmeri Dominion strong ambition of winning the next great war, and potentially gaining their right, as an reward for their great accomplishments of becoming the next rulers of Tamriel... you would think that the Empire and the Stormcloaks would reason with each other, and to form an alliance out of necessity instead of trying to kill each other.

Ulfric and Tullius reminds me of the dumb and dumber movie, on the women on bus scene

 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Sovngarde is for the honoured dead, not common bandits.


You are probably thinking about the Halls of valor, which is not the same as Sovengarde.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000947cf
"None may pass this perilous bridge 'til I judge them worthy by the warrior's test."- Tsun

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000ea2ff
"Living or dead, by decree of Shor, none may pass this perilous bridge 'til I judge them worthy by the warrior's test."

You can be a bandit marauder and still gain access to the Hall of Valor if you pass Tsuns warriors test. It has nothing to do with ones choice of life in the living for as long as they did not convert to the Daedra.

The Hall of valor doesn't welcome milk drinkers.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Sovngarde is for the honoured dead, not common bandits.


You are probably thinking about the Halls of valor, which is not the same as Sovengarde.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000947cf
"None may pass this perilous bridge 'til I judge them worthy by the warrior's test."- Tsun

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000ea2ff
"Living or dead, by decree of Shor, none may pass this perilous bridge 'til I judge them worthy by the warrior's test."

You can be a bandit marauder and still gain access to the Hall of Valor if you pass Tsuns warriors test. It has nothing to do with ones choice of life in the living for as long as they did not convert to the Daedra.

The Hall of valor doesn't welcome milk drinkers.


And what Lewsean was saying is that the "honored" dead, or more likely the Stormcloaks alone, are the ones going to Sovengarde.
 

Lewsean

Member
And what Lewsean was saying is that the "honored" dead, or more likely the Stormcloaks alone, are the ones going to Sovengarde.
Please prove that I said Stormcloak's only go to Sovngarde. I said that siding with the Empire over the Stormcloak's is more benefitial to Alduin due to the Stormcloak's being made up of Nords only whilst the Empire is made up of mostly Imperials. (The Empire only has Cyrodill left, they don't control Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr or Hammerfell anymore, they have very little support from anybody outside of Cyrodill)

"Come forth!" cried out a hoary man who sat upon a high wooden chair. This I knew to be Ysgramor, father of Skyrim and the Nords. I approached and knelt before him.
"You find yourself in Sovngarde, hall of the honored dead. Now, what would you have of me, son of the north?" he bellowed.
"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - A Dream of Sovngarde

Oh and don't try and dismiss that book, it's details on Sovngarde are 100% accurate to how you see it. I doubt a bandit being murdered after raping and pillaging a town would be deemed the honored dead.


Edit: @ Raijin

Ulfric attempted many, many times to convinced the High King to secede from the Empire, but he was more interested in taking his dumb air head of a wife to partys and showering her in jewels. Thought he did respect Ulfric and his views, he didn't have the backbone required of a High King of Skyrim to act on it, thus he was challeneged by a true Nord in the old way and was easily sewpt aside.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
And what Lewsean was saying is that the "honored" dead, or more likely the Stormcloaks alone, are the ones going to Sovengarde.
Please prove that I said Stormcloak's only go to Sovngarde. I said that siding with the Empire over the Stormcloak's is more benefitial to Alduin due to the Stormcloak's being made up of Nords only whilst the Empire is made up of mostly Imperials. (The Empire only has Cyrodill left, they don't control Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr or Hammerfell anymore, they have very little support from anybody outside of Cyrodill)

"Come forth!" cried out a hoary man who sat upon a high wooden chair. This I knew to be Ysgramor, father of Skyrim and the Nords. I approached and knelt before him.
"You find yourself in Sovngarde, hall of the honored dead. Now, what would you have of me, son of the north?" he bellowed.
"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - A Dream of Sovngarde

Oh and don't try and dismiss that book, it's details on Sovngarde are 100% accurate to how you see it. I doubt a bandit being murdered after raping and pillaging a town would be deemed the honored dead.
You implied that when you talked about how hardly anyone in the legion is Imperial not nord, and thus would not go to sovengarde, meaning the Stormcloaks are the only true nords, as you also dismissed Nord bandits as nords.

Honored dead is not just the ones who die with all honor and no crimes.
 

Lewsean

Member
And what Lewsean was saying is that the "honored" dead, or more likely the Stormcloaks alone, are the ones going to Sovengarde.
Please prove that I said Stormcloak's only go to Sovngarde. I said that siding with the Empire over the Stormcloak's is more benefitial to Alduin due to the Stormcloak's being made up of Nords only whilst the Empire is made up of mostly Imperials. (The Empire only has Cyrodill left, they don't control Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr or Hammerfell anymore, they have very little support from anybody outside of Cyrodill)

"Come forth!" cried out a hoary man who sat upon a high wooden chair. This I knew to be Ysgramor, father of Skyrim and the Nords. I approached and knelt before him.
"You find yourself in Sovngarde, hall of the honored dead. Now, what would you have of me, son of the north?" he bellowed.
"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - A Dream of Sovngarde

Oh and don't try and dismiss that book, it's details on Sovngarde are 100% accurate to how you see it. I doubt a bandit being murdered after raping and pillaging a town would be deemed the honored dead.
You implied that when you talked about how hardly anyone in the legion is Imperial not nord, and thus would not go to sovengarde, meaning the Stormcloaks are the only true nords, as you also dismissed Nord bandits as nords.

Honored dead is not just the ones who die with all honor and no crimes.
Okay then, let's end this discussion as it's going away from the imperials vs stormcloak debate. But to say I'm wrong about killing stormcloaks being more beneficial to Alduin is just ignoring the complete obvious, he specifically absorbs souls form Sovngarde, Nordic people go to Sovngarde (bad/good, whatever), there are much less Nords in the Legion than the Stormcloaks. I welcome any other debate that will get us back on topic though, so please think of something :D
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Okay then, let's end this discussion as it's going away from the imperials vs stormcloak debate. But to say I'm wrong about killing stormcloaks being more beneficial to Alduin is just ignoring the complete obvious, he specifically absorbs souls form Sovngarde, Nordic people go to Sovngarde (bad/good, whatever), there are much less Nords in the Legion than the Stormcloaks. I welcome any other debate that will get us back on topic though, so please think of something :D
Meaning that you were saying that siding with the stormcloaks is less souls for Alduin, which is wrong.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Okay then, let's end this discussion as it's going away from the imperials vs stormcloak debate. But to say I'm wrong about killing stormcloaks being more beneficial to Alduin is just ignoring the complete obvious, he specifically absorbs souls form Sovngarde, Nordic people go to Sovngarde (bad/good, whatever), there are much less Nords in the Legion than the Stormcloaks. I welcome any other debate that will get us back on topic though, so please think of something :D
Meaning that you were saying that siding with the stormcloaks is less souls for Alduin, which is wrong.

Blaming the Stormcloaks for aiding Alduin's in his recovery in Sovngarde is ridiculous.

I just hope for the sake of this thread that this particular subject can go away as it's irreverent.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Okay then, let's end this discussion as it's going away from the imperials vs stormcloak debate. But to say I'm wrong about killing stormcloaks being more beneficial to Alduin is just ignoring the complete obvious, he specifically absorbs souls form Sovngarde, Nordic people go to Sovngarde (bad/good, whatever), there are much less Nords in the Legion than the Stormcloaks. I welcome any other debate that will get us back on topic though, so please think of something :D
Meaning that you were saying that siding with the stormcloaks is less souls for Alduin, which is wrong.

Blaming the Stormcloaks for aiding Alduin's in his recovery in Sovngarde is ridiculous.

I just hope for the sake of this thread that this particular subject can go away as it's irreverent.
I am just saying that what he was posting is what was implying that he was saying it.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Please prove that I said Stormcloak's only go to Sovngarde. I said that siding with the Empire over the Stormcloak's is more benefitial to Alduin due to the Stormcloak's being made up of Nords only whilst the Empire is made up of mostly Imperials. (The Empire only has Cyrodill left, they don't control Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr or Hammerfell anymore, they have very little support from anybody outside of Cyrodill)

"Come forth!" cried out a hoary man who sat upon a high wooden chair. This I knew to be Ysgramor, father of Skyrim and the Nords. I approached and knelt before him.
"You find yourself in Sovngarde, hall of the honored dead. Now, what would you have of me, son of the north?" he bellowed.
"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - A Dream of Sovngarde

Oh and don't try and dismiss that book, it's details on Sovngarde are 100% accurate to how you see it. I doubt a bandit being murdered after raping and pillaging a town would be deemed the honored dead.
You implied that when you talked about how hardly anyone in the legion is Imperial not nord, and thus would not go to sovengarde, meaning the Stormcloaks are the only true nords, as you also dismissed Nord bandits as nords.

Honored dead is not just the ones who die with all honor and no crimes.
Okay then, let's end this discussion as it's going away from the imperials vs stormcloak debate. But to say I'm wrong about killing stormcloaks being more beneficial to Alduin is just ignoring the complete obvious, he specifically absorbs souls form Sovngarde, Nordic people go to Sovngarde (bad/good, whatever), there are much less Nords in the Legion than the Stormcloaks. I welcome any other debate that will get us back on topic though, so please think of something :D



Agreed. I think you've brought up a very relevant point in this discussion. The Civil war undoubtedly provides various opportunities for several parties. Potema, Thalmor, Forsworn and of course, Alduin to name just a few.

All intersect somehow to the "Alessian Fields" (Some of you will get this and some of you won't ;) ).

This is why, in theory, suggests just how important the discussion on the Skyrim Civil War is, allowing us to understand the other elements in Skyrim thru analysis of their relationship(s) with the Skyrim Civil War.

Also, I would not at all consider this off topic. Both Alduin and the Civil War tie in with the main quest, so there's no harm in talking about what the Dragons have to gain from the Civil War factions.

To dismiss the relation between other factions and the Civil War is to not have a complete understanding of the Civil War itself.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
But Balgruuf specifically states using Tullius' legions instead of his own warriors to fight Ulfric, and the legion, according to the wiki, is mostly made up of Imperials with the few nords coming from, like you said, recent local recruiting. Going by this information I'd say that killing the Stormcloaks and Ulfric is more benefitial to Alduin than fighting the Empire.

Not exactly, the Imperial Legion isn't mostly just Imperials. The Nords of Skyrim make up thousands in the Legions, which they have long been considered the strong arm of the Empire.

The Legion in Skyrim are Auxiliaries, local recruited militia. The forces in Skyrim would be majority Nordic.

People make the mistake of looking at this debate the wrong way. If the Empire is all high and mighty, why are they wasting resources trying to quell a rebellion caused by their own cowardice rather than appealing with the people who's lives they are playing with?

Cowardice? The Empire was nearly destroyed, it isn't just soldiers one has to consider. There are the thousands of innocent civilians people have to take into account. The White-Gold Concordat isn't the best thing, but Titus II felt it was needed to secure peace and rebuild for the next round of fighting.

The Thalmor are against everything the Empire stands for, they want to weaken the Empire as much as they can. Ulfric's rebellion is about Ulfric. Two of his own Jarls can see he's after the throne and he's selfish.

All this poor talk of the Empire and how stretched they are and how they're doing everything to keep the Thalmor out of Skyrim, yet they willingly allow citizens of the Empire to be taken and tortured without doing a SINGLE thing to stop it, how do you expect to gain the support and trust of a people you willingly allow to be kidnapped and tortured?

They're keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim, blocking an inading army. The Legion is stretched thin, they're all in Cyrodiil. Few garrisons remain outside of Cyrodiil. The citizens being taken is bad, you're right about that. But, what about the bandit issue?

Ulfric's rebellion has allowed bandits to gain a huge foot hold. They're killing citizens, raiding farms, robbing what little merchant traffic passes through Skyrim. The Thalmor problem is ironically smaller than the bandit issue that came from Ulfric's actions. In response to one issue, they created a new issue that is even worse.

They're in it for them selves only, the only reason they care about Skyrim is strategic and financial gain..

Actually the Empire was ignoring Skyrim, they weren't very active prior to Ulfric's rebellion. They were dealing with issues in Cyrodiil. The Legion stepped in because Ulfric had killed the High King and the country was thrown into chaos.

There are also many citizens within Skyrim that want to remain part of the Empire.

If Skyrim had nothing to offer, it would of been abandoned during the war with the rest of Tamriel, simply because it didn't effect the privileged few in Cyrodill

Skyrim was abandoned during the war, it is mentioned the Empire turned a blind eye to everything else when it was invaded. Skyrim does have nothing to offer, the country is plagued with Dragons and every Hold is poor due to the Civil War. Tullius has to tax trading vessels to get enough money for the war effort.

What is Skyrim offering at the moment?

a Cyrodill that wouldn't be standing if it weren't for General Jonna and his Nord legion.

What? It wasn't just the Nord Legions (General Jonna was holding position to cut off Aldmeri retreat) Imperials, Nords and Bretons are credited with saving the Empire.

If anything, Titus II and General Decianus did the most during the Great War.

The only Nation that stayed true to the Empire were royally fluffed over. It all boils down to a proud warrior race having there traditions and customs abolished by a tyrannical government, only to be labeled traitors and be hunted for wanting to live there life the way they always have.

Only Nation? What about High Rock, they're still loyal to the Empire. As for tyrannical government? Are you somehow forgetting Ulfric is doing a Military coup? The Empire isn't abolishing traditions and customs of Skyrim. The worship of Talos was ignored and wasn't even properly banned until Ulfric started making a scene.

With us or against us, that isn't tyrannical at all.

The 'murder' of the high king was justified within their own laws and customs, but because it effects the Empire and there hold over Skyrim they totally ignore it and class Ulfric as a murderer. I see no reason for the Empire to even exist at this point, every action they take is a benefit to the Thalmor.

The killing of High King Torygg wasn't justified by Imperial Law, which Skyrim has followed for at least 600 years.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

Yeah, I can see preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion must be a real benefit. Ulfric's entire rebellion benefitted the Thalmor, they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks.

I don't see a reason for the Stormcloaks to exist, they're too ignorant to even realize the Thalmor are playing them.

So by your logic Alduin ate up all of the "Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion." and so now hes starting to munch on the civil war souls? Sovngarde is full of souls from Nords who have perished. Don't mistake game mechanics from reality. I find it hard to believe that he had devoured them all.

What? The Great War was thirty years ago and Alduin only returned during 4E 201. He can't eat the souls inside. The Civil War sustains him, makes him more stronger because it is a large supply of souls.

Oh come on. I find it hard to believe that Alduin attacked Helgan just to keep the civil war going. That's complete and utter nonsense. I know you, Drunkenmage. And I know that you can't possibly be serious by saying this. Do you honestly believe that Alduin gives a pl*** about the Civil war? No. What he cares about is killing the Dragonborn, which he possessively believes he has that right, and not the Imperial Legion.

Alduin doesn't even figure out yoiu're Dragonborn until you come across him waking up another Dragon with Delphine. Then he has a conversation with you.

Yes, I do believe Alduin cares about the Civil War. Because it is part of the prophecy to what allows him to end the world, "When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood"

The war is sending him the souls he needs to gather strength.

You're reading too much of what severely depressed Ulfric and the highly annoyed Esbern said. Ulfric is weeping in defeat and Esbern got tired of the rambling that was going on, and so what he said was a polite way of saying STFU to Tullius and Ulfric.

Seriously? Is that how you work your way around arguments. "He's just depressed, he's just annoyed" therefor the loremaster of the Blades who has a lot of knowledge about Alduin is wrong, and Ulfric who is now dead and understands what is happening in the spirit world is actually just depressed and is talking plops?

How do you draw these conclusions?
 

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