Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

DrunkenMage said:

Not to mention she was there to ensure the Empire doesn't agree to terms that breach the White-Gold Concordat again, i.e Markarth Incident.

In fact Ulfric threatening to walk due to her presence is worse than Tullius bringing her. He was almost willing to allow his countrymen to continue dying, their souls to feed Alduin and obstruct the Dragonborn from saving the world. He let personal feelings nearly get the better of him, and was willing to damn all of Nirn because of them.

Ulfric has been captured three times in his Military career. He's only won a single battle on his own, not exactly odds you want to put money on.

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Under no circumstances did the Dragonborn informed Ulfric that the Thalmor will be present in the temporary truce between the Stormcloaks and the Imperials at High Hrothgar. In fact the Dragonborn wasn't even aware of this instigating act that Tullius would execute later on. It is only natural for someone to become upset, and even in rage when the other party brings an unwelcoming and uninvited third party into an important meeting that has nothing to do with the third party.

By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Raijin said:

Under no circumstances did the Dragonborn informed Ulfric that the Thalmor will be present in the temporary truce between the Stormcloaks and the Imperials at High Hrothgar. In fact the Dragonborn wasn't even aware of this instigating act that Tullius would execute later on. It is only natural for someone to become upset, and even in rage when the other party brings an unwelcoming and uninvited third party into an important meeting that has nothing to do with the third party.

By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Click to expand...

I agree about Balgruuf delaying it. He said he didn't want the threat of war at his doorstep, yet pretty much every hold had the threat of war.


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By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Click to expand...

I'm somewhat saddened by this comment. Not really angry per say, just saddened. For all we know, or more spec for all Jarl B knew, they could put an end to the entire Civil War *because* of the Dragon menace at High Hrothgar. You see it as weakness, no my friend, Jarl B did the right thing by forging a crucible. It's rather unfort it couldn't last. The meeting at High Hrothgar was very interesting and indeed, had kooler hearts prevailed the Civil War could have ended then and there. Deal with the Dragons later. Alduin wasn't going anywhere. Furthermore, even after *destroying* him the dragons are still around.

If you would like to blame someone for truly causing a distraction in the midst of the Dragon War, Ulfric would do. More so than any other Jarl, more so than the Empire. I blame him. Gen Tully seemed willing to work something out with Ulfric AND esp with the Greybeards present, Ulfric could have got out of this war if he wanted to.

Raijin said:

DrunkenMage said:

Not to mention she was there to ensure the Empire doesn't agree to terms that breach the White-Gold Concordat again, i.e Markarth Incident.

In fact Ulfric threatening to walk due to her presence is worse than Tullius bringing her. He was almost willing to allow his countrymen to continue dying, their souls to feed Alduin and obstruct the Dragonborn from saving the world. He let personal feelings nearly get the better of him, and was willing to damn all of Nirn because of them.

Ulfric has been captured three times in his Military career. He's only won a single battle on his own, not exactly odds you want to put money on.

Click to expand...

By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? No peace treaty means no way to save to world. More deaths in the war in the long run=more power to Alduin=death to the LDB and the world.

Also think about it this way: Balgruuf is the JARL, that means he has the POWER to do that. How can he do that without that power. If he focused all on the dragons, the Civil war could destroy the city or put it into the hands of the stormcloaks and make all that pointless.

Under no circumstances did the Dragonborn informed Ulfric that the Thalmor will be present in the temporary truce between the Stormcloaks and the Imperials at High Hrothgar. In fact the Dragonborn wasn't even aware of this instigating act that Tullius would execute later on. It is only natural for someone to become upset, and even in rage when the other party brings an unwelcoming and uninvited third party into an important meeting that has nothing to do with the third party.

Click to expand...

Although you know Raijin, *her* presence would have been enough to derail any perm peace settlement. Ulfric was on edge right after walking thru the door because he saw her and wanted her gone.

For that, I cannot blame him. The damn Thalmor are like a wrecking crew you know... like a home wrecker lolz. The Stormcloaks would have been on edge even more because Gen Tully had no choice but to invite her. Regardless of what Gen Tully and Jarl Ulrfric wanted she would have been an impassible obstacle, either way. Her being there chose for them.

Elenwen's involvement would have been excruciating for both parties to work out a perm peace deal.

Jeremius said:

Raijin said:

DrunkenMage said:

Not to mention she was there to ensure the Empire doesn't agree to terms that breach the White-Gold Concordat again, i.e Markarth Incident.

In fact Ulfric threatening to walk due to her presence is worse than Tullius bringing her. He was almost willing to allow his countrymen to continue dying, their souls to feed Alduin and obstruct the Dragonborn from saving the world. He let personal feelings nearly get the better of him, and was willing to damn all of Nirn because of them.

Ulfric has been captured three times in his Military career. He's only won a single battle on his own, not exactly odds you want to put money on.

Click to expand...

By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? No peace treaty means no way to save to world. More deaths in the war in the long run=more power to Alduin=death to the LDB and the world.

Also think about it this way: Balgruuf is the JARL, that means he has the POWER to do that. How can he do that without that power. If he focused all on the dragons, the Civil war could destroy the city or put it into the hands of the stormcloaks and make all that pointless.

Click to expand...

Exactly. If Jarl B had just gone along with it and his hold had fallen == more lives for Alduin. If there had been no peace treaty == more lives for Alduin. While, I'm not *astonished* that Raijin would post this the point he's making is illogical. The peace treaty stopped the fighting for a while, which probably slowed Alduin down a bit, not to mention what went down at Whiterun during the quest itself.

Raijin said:

Under no circumstances did the Dragonborn informed Ulfric that the Thalmor will be present in the temporary truce between the Stormcloaks and the Imperials at High Hrothgar. In fact the Dragonborn wasn't even aware of this instigating act that Tullius would execute later on. It is only natural for someone to become upset, and even in rage when the other party brings an unwelcoming and uninvited third party into an important meeting that has nothing to do with the third party.

Click to expand...

Actually neither party was instructed on who to bring as part of their delegation. The Dragonborn didn't set rules on who one side was allowed to bring. Elenwen's presence would have been obvious, the last time Ulfric and the Empire struck deals the White-Gold Concordat was breached.

Tullius didn't bring her because he wanted to, he had no choice in the matter. He hates Elenwen and the Thalmor with a passion. Bringing her to the council keeps her off his back.

Raijin said:

By the way Balgruuf played a huge part of allowing his countrymen to continue dying, their souls fed to Alduin in Sovngarde by obstructing the Dragonborn from saving the world when he said no to the idea of capturing a dragon in his hold, suggested by Paarthurnax. He delayed the process by wasting the Dragonborn's time by constructing a peace treaty.

Click to expand...

Vignar does the exact same thing. Balgruuf has a duty to his people, as the Jarl of a city he has to think of them. How exactly is making peace a waste of time?

"Ulfric and General Tullius are both just waiting for me to make a wrong move. Do you think they will sit idle while a dragon is slaughtering my men and burning my city?"

The peace treaty was to also stop the killing between Stormcloaks and Legion. Every soldier killed kept making Alduin stronger. Do you think limiting Alduin's power is a waste of time too?

ShadowHunter said:

I agree about Balgruuf delaying it. He said he didn't want the threat of war at his doorstep, yet pretty much every hold had the threat of war.

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Actually Whiterun had the threat of war more so than the other Holds. Everything depended upon who controlled Whiterun, it is the most strategic location in Skyrim.

"Whiterun seems like a better choice to me. From there we can threaten to undermine the whole Imperial position." - Ulfric Stormcloak

ShadowHunter said:

I agree about Balgruuf delaying it. He said he didn't want the threat of war at his doorstep, yet pretty much every hold had the threat of war.


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Click to expand...

That is understandable but he still delayed the process.

Jeremius said:

What are you talking about? No peace treaty means no way to save to world. More deaths in the war in the long run=more power to Alduin=death to the LDB and the world.

Also think about it this way: Balgruuf is the JARL, that means he has the POWER to do that. How can he do that without that power. If he focused all on the dragons, the Civil war could destroy the city or put it into the hands of the stormcloaks and make all that pointless.

Click to expand...

Its not the Dragonborn's responsibility to waste time to arrange this peace treaty just because a certain Whiterun Jarl is too paranoid about the repercussions of not picking sides in the civil war. The Dragonborn came to Balgruuf to deal with the dragon situation, not to get involved in the political affairs.

LegateFasendil said:

Although you know Raijin, *her* presence would have been enough to derail any perm peace settlement. Ulfric was on edge right after walking thru the door because he saw her and wanted her gone.

For that, I cannot blame him. The damn Thalmor are like a wrecking crew you know... like a home wrecker lolz. The Stormcloaks would have been on edge even more because Gen Tully had no choice but to invite her. Regardless of what Gen Tully and Jarl Ulrfric wanted she would have been an impassible obstacle, either way. Her being there chose for them.

Elenwen's involvement would have been excruciating for both parties to work out a perm peace deal.

Click to expand...

The temporary peace treaty was between the Imperial Legion/Empire and the Stormcloaks. It had nothing to do with the Thalmor, and General Warmongering Tullius had no right to bring her along without letting the other party know of an advanced, or let them agreed to her presence.

Tullius is an asshole for doing what he did, For bringing his chief Talos hunter at the meeting to discuss a temporary PEACE treaty.

Dear General Warmongering Tullius
Signed,
Raijin

Alduin absorbed souls from Sovngarde, killing every single Imperial in Tamriel wouldn't have been a benefit to him at all considering those dead Imperials didn't go to Sovngarde...

DrunkenMage said:

Actually neither party was instructed on who to bring as part of their delegation. The Dragonborn didn't set rules on who one side was allowed to bring. Elenwen's presence would have been obvious, the last time Ulfric and the Empire struck deals the White-Gold Concordat was breached.

Tullius didn't bring her because he wanted to, he had no choice in the matter. He hates Elenwen and the Thalmor with a passion. Bringing her to the council keeps her off his back.

Click to expand...

The peace treaty was between Tullius/Rikke and the Imperial Legion and Ulfric/Galmar and the Stormcloaks. The rules are quite the obvious from an intellectual stand of point, and it doesn't need o be explained by 2 intellectual beings.

Ulfric didn't struck any deals that breached the White-Gold Concordat. It was the Empire.

DrunkenMage said:

Vignar does the exact same thing. Balgruuf has a duty to his people, as the Jarl of a city he has to think of them. How exactly is making peace a waste of time?

"Ulfric and General Tullius are both just waiting for me to make a wrong move. Do you think they will sit idle while a dragon is slaughtering my men and burning my city?"

The peace treaty was to also stop the killing between Stormcloaks and Legion. Every soldier killed kept making Alduin stronger. Do you think limiting Alduin's power is a waste of time too?

Click to expand...

Vignar does what? And you're right. Balgruuf has duty as a Jarl to protect his people. The Dragons who are part of Alduin's army poses a significant and catastrophic threat against his people, not the Imperials or the Stormcloaks.

Apparently the temporary peace treaty didn't seem to stop Alduin from regaining his power in Sovngarde. No way did it even come close to limiting his power considering the fact that it took 4 mastered people with the tongues to evaporate his mist. While the dragonborn is busy doing Balfruufs paranoia doing, and setting up a peace treaty between the imperials and the Stormcloaks Alduin was busy munching away on the souls of those currently in Sovngarde.

Raijin said:

]

Jeremius said:

What are you talking about? No peace treaty means no way to save to world. More deaths in the war in the long run=more power to Alduin=death to the LDB and the world.

Also think about it this way: Balgruuf is the JARL, that means he has the POWER to do that. How can he do that without that power. If he focused all on the dragons, the Civil war could destroy the city or put it into the hands of the stormcloaks and make all that pointless.

Click to expand...

Its not the Dragonborn's responsibility to waste time to arrange this peace treaty just because a certain Whiterun Jarl is too paranoid about the repercussions of not picking sides in the civil war. The Dragonborn came to Balgruuf to deal with the dragon situation, not to get involved in the political affairs.

Click to expand...

In order for the Dragonborn to do his duty, he needed the Jarl of whiterun's help. Without the power of that position, Jarl Balgruuf cannot do anything.

Balgruff is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and he needs the war to stop for a moment so he can help the dragonborn without risk of losing his city or power to either side.

Raijin said:

LegateFasendil said:

Although you know Raijin, *her* presence would have been enough to derail any perm peace settlement. Ulfric was on edge right after walking thru the door because he saw her and wanted her gone.

For that, I cannot blame him. The damn Thalmor are like a wrecking crew you know... like a home wrecker lolz. The Stormcloaks would have been on edge even more because Gen Tully had no choice but to invite her. Regardless of what Gen Tully and Jarl Ulrfric wanted she would have been an impassible obstacle, either way. Her being there chose for them.

Elenwen's involvement would have been excruciating for both parties to work out a perm peace deal.

Click to expand...

The temporary peace treaty was between the Imperial Legion/Empire and the Stormcloaks. It had nothing to do with the Thalmor, and General Warmongering Tullius had no right to bring her along without letting the other party know of an advanced, or let them agreed to her presence.

Tullius is an asshole for doing what he did, For bringing his chief Talos hunter at the meeting to discuss a temporary PEACE treaty.

Dear General Warmongering Tullius

Signed,
Raijin

Click to expand...

Well... yes and no. I don't disagree with you on this one. However, the Empire did sign a treaty with the Thalmor and part of that treaty involves Thalmor laws which the Empire agreed to uphold. It's a 50/50 chance that Elenwen would be there. Her presence wasn't req'd but, she could make a case giving her the right to be invited as part of the Imperial delegation.

You know, basically the Thalmor are like the Fed. We don't need them, but, eventually they got their way and "the Empire" decided it is better for them to have their way for a while rather than keep fighting them. The problem is though, at least with the Fed, is that over time our leaders have quit questioning them, have quit auditing them and you've seen how out of control the IRS is. So. As long as the Thalmor are given license by the Imperial Gov they can in fact, do whatever they want. Unless the state/local Imperial Officials demand an accounting of them, which the Jarls in Skyrim do appear to be doing. Although Elisif... maybe not so much. However, this is certainly not surp considering the events surrounding the death of her husband, which would of course push her closer to the "apparent" enemies of Ulfric.

Of course, unlike the Fed, the Thalmlor want MORE. They'll instigate another war sooner or late and will not be content with having some Imperial power, yet, being themselves subservient to strong Imperial Leadership. The Thalmor want it all and that will most likely be their undoing.

Gen Tullius however, is not a warmonger. Did he force himself into Whiterun? Nope. Is the Imperial presence perm in Whiterun? Nope. The Leg says they're only there to help at the Jarl's invite. They can and will leave that city whenever the Jarl so chooses. This is not characteristic of a warmonger. Would the Stormcloaks do the same? Would Ulfric leave if any Jarl asked him to? Aha see.

Lewsean said:

Alduin absorbed souls from Sovngarde, killing every single Imperial in Tamriel wouldn't have been a benefit to him at all considering those dead Imperials didn't go to Sovngarde...

Click to expand...

Except the Legion in Skyrim is mostly Nords.

Raijin said:

The peace treaty was between Tullius/Rikke and the Imperial Legion and Ulfric/Galmar and the Stormcloaks. The rules are quite the obvious from an intellectual stand of point, and it doesn't need o be explained by 2 intellectual beings.

Ulfric didn't struck any deals that breached the White-Gold Concordat. It was the Empire.

Click to expand...

It doesn't change anything, the Thalmor were there to ensure Tullius doesn't agree to anything that violates the White-Gold Concordat. The Treaty is between Tullius and Ulfric, those were the only two people invited. They could bring their own delegation.

Either way, Elenwen uninvited or not wasn't wanted there by Tullius also. The Dragonborn even knows it when he/she says it to Ulfric.

It doesn't matter who struck the deal, the last time Ulfric and the Empire agreed to something it violated the treaty.

Raijin said:

Vignar does what? And you're right. Balgruuf has duty as a Jarl to protect his people. The Dragons who are part of Alduin's army poses a significant and catastrophic threat against his people, not the Imperials or the Stormcloaks.

Apparently the temporary peace treaty didn't seem to stop Alduin from regaining his power in Sovngarde. No way did it even come close to limiting his power considering the fact that it took 4 mastered people with the tongues to evaporate his mist. While the dragonborn is busy doing Balfruufs paranoia doing, and setting up a peace treaty between the imperials and the Stormcloaks Alduin was busy munching away on the souls of those currently in Sovngarde.

Click to expand...

Vignar won't help unless there is a peace treaty also. You're blaming Balgruuf in some Stormcloak agenda, when even your side does the exact same thing.

By your own logic, Vignar is just as bad as Balgruuf. Paranoid and delaying the Dragonborn.

It also does actually stop Alduin gaining more power, he was feeding off the Civil War.

"Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Well you backed yourself into a corner on that one Raijin, didn't you?!?? XD

DrunkenMage said:

Lewsean said:

Alduin absorbed souls from Sovngarde, killing every single Imperial in Tamriel wouldn't have been a benefit to him at all considering those dead Imperials didn't go to Sovngarde...

Click to expand...

Except the Legion in Skyrim is mostly Nords.

Click to expand...

95% of the Legion members you kill are Imperials, I can't remember any being a Nord to be honest but I won't say 100% to be safe. The only one being Rikke, and you see her, the other two legate's you don't see in war.

Lewsean said:

DrunkenMage said:

Lewsean said:

Alduin absorbed souls from Sovngarde, killing every single Imperial in Tamriel wouldn't have been a benefit to him at all considering those dead Imperials didn't go to Sovngarde...

Click to expand...

Except the Legion in Skyrim is mostly Nords.

Click to expand...

95% of the Legion members you kill are Imperials, I can't remember any being a Nord to be honest but I won't say 100% to be safe. The only one being Rikke, and you see her, the other two legate's you don't see in war.

Click to expand...

Technically, you would both be right and wrong. The legion in Skyrim are not Nord or Imperial, but skyrim citizens who are imperial in culture.

Lewsean said:

DrunkenMage said:

Lewsean said:

Alduin absorbed souls from Sovngarde, killing every single Imperial in Tamriel wouldn't have been a benefit to him at all considering those dead Imperials didn't go to Sovngarde...

Click to expand...

Except the Legion in Skyrim is mostly Nords.

Click to expand...

95% of the Legion members you kill are Imperials, I can't remember any being a Nord to be honest but I won't say 100% to be safe. The only one being Rikke, and you see her, the other two legate's you don't see in war.

Click to expand...

If you look in the game files, the Imperial Legion is made up of:

- Bretons
- Imperials
- Nords
- Redguards

And perhaps Dark Elves from the one encounter. The Legates displayed are from these races + Orcs and High Elves.

It's also entirely possible the Imperial concept was not completely dev as there is substantial evidence from incomplete quests, conflicting screen splashes and numerous other indicators and red flags in the code that indicate Skyrim was completed and yet, not fully developed.

Lewsean said:

95% of the Legion members you kill are Imperials, I can't remember any being a Nord to be honest but I won't say 100% to be safe. The only one being Rikke, and you see her, the other two legate's you don't see in war.

Click to expand...

Maybe for a single play through they were. The game generates the soldiers between the races. The Legion in Skyrim is recruiting locally, the number of Nords increases. Conversations from Ulfric and Rikke hint that a lot of the time it is Nord vs Nord.

LegateFasendil said:

Well... yes and no. I don't disagree with you on this one. However, the Empire did sign a treaty with the Thalmor and part of that treaty involves Thalmor laws which the Empire agreed to uphold. It's a 50/50 chance that Elenwen would be there. Her presence wasn't req'd but, she could make a case giving her the right to be invited as part of the Imperial delegation.

You know, basically the Thalmor are like the Fed. We don't need them, but, eventually they got their way and "the Empire" decided it is better for them to have their way for a while rather than keep fighting them. The problem is though, at least with the Fed, is that over time our leaders have quit questioning them, have quit auditing them and you've seen how out of control the IRS is. So. As long as the Thalmor are given license by the Imperial Gov they can in fact, do whatever they want. Unless the state/local Imperial Officials demand an accounting of them, which the Jarls in Skyrim do appear to be doing. Although Elisif... maybe not so much. However, this is certainly not surp considering the events surrounding the death of her husband, which would of course push her closer to the "apparent" enemies of Ulfric.

Of course, unlike the Fed, the Thalmlor want MORE. They'll instigate another war sooner or late and will not be content with having some Imperial power, yet, being themselves subservient to strong Imperial Leadership. The Thalmor want it all and that will most likely be their undoing.

Gen Tullius however, is not a warmonger. Did he force himself into Whiterun? Nope. Is the Imperial presence perm in Whiterun? Nope. The Leg says they're only there to help at the Jarl's invite. They can and will leave that city whenever the Jarl so chooses. This is not characteristic of a warmonger. Would the Stormcloaks do the same? Would Ulfric leave if any Jarl asked him to? Aha see.

Click to expand...

The Empire is giving the Thalmor too much power then they should have. When you agree to Ulfric that Elenwen needs to leave the meeting she says "Very well, Ulfric. Enjoy your petty victory. The Thalmor will treat with whatever government rules Skyrim. We would not think of interfering in your civil war." Elenwen even admits from her statement that the Thalmor wouldn't think of interfering with the civil war... so my question is... What reason does she need to be there if her government is not getting involved in the civil war? The meeting was to temporary halt the civil war (Stormcloaks vs Imperials) until the dragon situation ends.

I truly question this White-Gold Concordat that the Emperor had agreed when he signed the treaty to halt the Great war? What price did it cost the Empire to make the Aldmeri Dominion happy? Do the Thalmor own a certain percentage of the Empire? I find it hard to believe that the White-Gold Concordat was written primary for the abandonment of the blades, to end the worship of talos, and to delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion.

After all she also said this in her statement: "I have every right to be at this negotiation. I need to ensure that nothing is agreed to here that violates the terms of the White-Gold Concordat."

And yes. Tullius is a warmonger. I've already explain why he is one from several pages ago Go back and re read what I wrote.

DrunkenMage said:

Vignar won't help unless there is a peace treaty also. You're blaming Balgruuf in some Stormcloak agenda, when even your side does the exact same thing.

By your own logic, Vignar is just as bad as Balgruuf. Paranoid and delaying the Dragonborn.

It also does actually stop Alduin gaining more power, he was feeding off the Civil War.

"Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Click to expand...

What do you mean Vignar wont help unless there is a peace treaty? You would need to be a Stormcloaks and had just finished giving Whiterun to Ulfric. I assume you're talking about the unfinished civil war questline, and going to forwards with the main quest? Because I've never had Vignar reject my help to capture a dragon in his hold.

Do you think Alduin wasn't feeding off the souls that died prior to the civil war? Nords die all the time from bear attack, Forsowrn, etc. He wasn't just feeding all of the dead Nords from the result of the civil war.

LegateFasendil said:

Well you backed yourself into a corner on that one Raijin, didn't you?!?? XD

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Don't you wish? I'll never give up... never SURRENDER!

Let's sing shall we? I'll start