Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Ulfric only cares for himself. Thats that he uses talos worship ban as leverage so people side with him. And also if you ask Jarl Elisif( the only person who was actually there that day) what happened she would say that he walked in attacked Torygg, and walked out. No matter shout or sword it was murder. Also in the games reality a shout could tear some one apart. Now in the game sense it doesnt happen cause we have "health bars" but if some dude came up to you and used unrelenting force on you im pretty sure and force like that would rip you apart.

Ivory said:

Because of the Childish name calling.

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Then I apologize.

Ivory said:

The Empire is going to look out for the Empire. The Empire's people come first, above all before the rebels that betrayed the Empire.

If the Empire does support Skyrim during the war, it's not for you, it's for the Nords and people who will be in Skyrim, mistreated and shunned for being supporters of the Empire.

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But if the Empire are going to even stand a chance in this war, they'll have to side with the Stormcloaks if they want even a chance in the war. The Stormcloaks will agree to it if the Empire is fighting the Dominion. It's just like the Ebonheart Pact where Argonia Morrowind, and Skyrim all sided with each other for the greater good even though they all had a beef with each other. Skyrim had a problem with Morrowind Argonia had a problem with Morrowind and Morrowind hated both sides. But they all came together to protect their land and to fight against the other two sides.

Ivory said:

Did I call you backwards or did I call your thought process backwards? There is a difference.

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Both are insulting so, no there isn't but, I'll allow you to continue.

Ivory said:

Smart people can make idiot choices. That doesn't mean they are an idiot. If I called you backwards personally, then I apologize but I'd like to see it.

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Right:This is the most backwards thing I've ever read, and I've read a lot of backwards things in this thread.
The irony of this guy's posts are painful.
Okay so to recap, Not only am I backwards but reading my posts is Painful. Thanks man, nice response. I accept your apology

Ivory said:

What was this question about again? Been awhile I stopped paying attention that far back. Lemme know and I'll get back to you.

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It was about how the Empire is not strong enough to take on the Dominion alone.

Ivory said:

The topic at hand was that we said an average Farmer with no experience in Combat would stand a chance. Not every farmer is a Stormcloak. That's where you're making miscalculation. Stormcloaks are somewhat trained. Sure some farmers are probably in the Rebellion, but most of the rebels are ex-imperial legion soldiers. You said farmers, which is incorrect to state every stormcloak as one.

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This was brought up by Drunken not me, he stated that the Stormcloaks are farmers and craftsmen because this is what Galmar said:We are farmers! We are craftsmen! We are sons and daughters of shopkeepers, maid servants and soldiers! We are the sons and daughters of Skyrim! And we have come this far because our cause is true.
Thats where the whole Farmer=Stormcloaks thing came from, that's why I said those farmers stood a better chance than the Auxiliaries. Sorry if you were confused

Ivory said:

Compared to a fully trained tactical soldier? Yes. The average citizen does not know how to load ammunition,

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It's not Rocket Science Ivory, you put a bullet in a slot in a rectangular metallic object and repeat 29 times. Then you put the metallic object in another slot in the weapon and pull a lever back. Now you have a loaded weapon.

Ivory said:

where the safety is or how to disarm it.

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Again not rocket science. It would probably take the average citizen about 5 seconds to find selective firing and the safety on a gun

Ivory said:

Nor use a combat knife properly. Or use a grenade or look down the sights to a weapon. What qualifies as proper cover, what doesn't, what is considered a Kill shot, what isn't. How to track their enemy, how to disable a close combat opponent. I can keep going.

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We're arguing whether or not a citizen stands a chance against a trained army, and they do, its been done before.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I wouldn't say "only cares for himself" He quite clearly is serious about Talos Worship, and about Skyrim's independence, however I think the argument you fall flat on is whether or not he murdered the High King. From what we can tell we've got Tulius saying that he shouted him apart, (which from our own point of view is unlikely) and Ulfric saying that he knocked him to the ground and stabbed him, since he's the only one who says this, this is also unlikely. But what we do know is that he challenged him and Torygg accepted. How he killed him is of no matter, but rather it is if he murdered him or killed him in a duel. whether or not its cowardly is up to you.

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When they say "he shouted him apart" they dont mean our health bars in the game(obviously cause fus ro dah doesnt do that ). They mean in literal sense(the reality of life) im sure if some guy walked up to you in real life if it happened(doubt it) and summoned the power of the thu'um on you i think you would be ripped in half from how powerful they say it actually is.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Ulfric only cares for himself. Thats that he uses talos worship ban as leverage so people side with him.

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Again not true, Ulfric truly wan'ts Talos Worship reinstated. This is evident when he took Markarth back for this reason and this reason alone. He Also prays to Talos every week in the Temple, and made a speech about it at the moot.

BoethiahsaBane said:

And also if you ask Jarl Elisif( the only person who was actually there that day) what happened she would say that he walked in attacked Torygg, and walked out. No matter shout or sword it was murder.

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Jarl Elisif was not the only person there that day. All of Torygs advisers were there. Sybille Stentor said that he did and Sybille Stentor is WAY more reliable than Elisif.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Also in the games reality a shout could tear some one apart. Now in the game sense it doesn't happen cause we have "health bars" but if some dude came up to you and used unrelenting force on you i'm pretty sure and force like that would rip you apart.

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Even though the game says otherwise. The only way you could "shout someone apart" was if you had the Hermaeus Mora shout increase, which you can only obtain by having read the Black Book "Epistolary Acumen" which even then doesn't shout them apart but rather Disintegrates them.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Again not true, Ulfric truly wan'ts Talos Worship reinstated. This is evident when he took Markarth back for this reason and this reason alone. He Also prays to Talos every week in the Temple, and made a speech about it at the moot.


Jarl Elisif was not the only person there that day. All of Torygs advisers were there. Sybille Stentor said that he did and Sybille Stentor is WAY more reliable than Elisif.



Even though the game says otherwise. The only way you could "shout someone apart" was if you had the Hermaeus Mora shout increase, which you can only obtain by having

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Sybille says the same thing. Not to mention if you walk into the palace of kings everyday and wait there he never leaves. So im pretty sure he doesnt go to the temple. Also there hasnt been a moot yet. And there wont be until the war is ended.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Again not true, Ulfric truly wan'ts Talos Worship reinstated. This is evident when he took Markarth back for this reason and this reason alone. He Also prays to Talos every week in the Temple, and made a speech about it at the moot.


Jarl Elisif was not the only person there that day. All of Torygs advisers were there. Sybille Stentor said that he did and Sybille Stentor is WAY more reliable than Elisif.



Even though the game says otherwise. The only way you could "shout someone apart" was if you had the Hermaeus Mora shout increase, which you can only obtain by having read the Black Book "Epistolary Acumen" which even then doesn't shout them apart but rather Disintegrates them.

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And the empire would love to have talos worship reinstated but its the fact that the ageement with the Thalmar "the white gold concordant" that prevents the empire from being destroyed says that they are not allowed to worship talos. So if that ageement would be broken then the empire would be attacked and they would all be dead or enslaved by the elves. It already almost happened once during the great war.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Sybille says the same thing. Not to mention if you walk into the palace of kings everyday and wait there he never leaves. So im pretty sure he doesnt go to the temple. Also there hasnt been a moot yet. And there wont be until the war is ended.

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I believe Sybille says that he challenged him and did it as a message to the Jarls I'll look up the exact quote.
Lortheims wife a priestess of Talos says that he go's there all the time.
"Like anyone, a crisis will push them towards devotion. I've been seeing a lot of the Shatter-Shields, since they lost their daughter. Hillevi Cruel-Sea comes in a lot, but I haven't seen her husband here in years. Ulfric prays for strength. I speak to Captain Lonely-Gale, but he doesn't spend much time here. Too busy."
The moot before the war. Ulfric made a speech about how shameful it was for the Empire abandoned Talos and how it was necessary for Skyrim to have its Independence. Again this is said by Sybille Stentor

BoethiahsaBane said:

And the empire would love to have talos worship reinstated but its the fact that the ageement with the Thalmar "the white gold concordant" that prevents the empire from being destroyed says that they are not allowed to worship talos. So if that ageement would be broken then the empire would be attacked and they would all be dead or enslaved by the elves. It already almost happened once during the great war.

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I realize this, but that's why its so imperative for Skyrim to have its Independence. So Skyrim can be free from the Witch Elves of the Aldmeri Dominion instead of lick their boots

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I believe Sybille says that he challenged him and did it as a message to the Jarls I'll look up the exact quote.
Lortheims wife a priestess of Talos says that he go's there all the time.
"Like anyone, a crisis will push them towards devotion. I've been seeing a lot of the Shatter-Shields, since they lost their daughter. Hillevi Cruel-Sea comes in a lot, but I haven't seen her husband here in years. Ulfric prays for strength. I speak to Captain Lonely-Gale, but he doesn't spend much time here. Too busy."
The moot before the war. Ulfric made a speech about how shameful it was for the Empire abandoned Talos and how it was necessary for Skyrim to have its Independence. Again this is said by Sybille Stentor

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Again no matter the case skyrim cannot have its independence to worship talos. The elves would stomp the empire once again if the white gold concordant wad breached. So in this sense ulfric is putting his people in more danger by freeing talos worship. Therefore is why i see it as a selfish act to become high king, he doesnt think about what would happen if they did free it. They arnt fighting the elves they are fighting the empire when its actually the eleves who are preventing it. The empire is just enforcing so everyone doesnt die.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I believe Sybille says that he challenged him and did it as a message to the Jarls I'll look up the exact quote.
Lortheims wife a priestess of Talos says that he go's there all the time.
"Like anyone, a crisis will push them towards devotion. I've been seeing a lot of the Shatter-Shields, since they lost their daughter. Hillevi Cruel-Sea comes in a lot, but I haven't seen her husband here in years. Ulfric prays for strength. I speak to Captain Lonely-Gale, but he doesn't spend much time here. Too busy."
The moot before the war. Ulfric made a speech about how shameful it was for the Empire abandoned Talos and how it was necessary for Skyrim to have its Independence. Again this is said by Sybille Stentor

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Again no matter the case skyrim cannot have its independence to worship talos. The elves would stomp the empire once again if the white gold concordant wad breached. So in this sense ulfric is putting his people in more danger by freeing talos worship. Therefore is why i see it as a selfish act to become high king, he doesnt think about what would happen if they did free it. They arnt fighting the elves they are fighting the empire when its actually the eleves who are preventing it. The empire is just enforcing so everyone doesnt die.

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The Empire wouldn't have to worry about the White Gold Concordant being breached if they lessened their grip on Skyrim and her people. He does think about it, he thinks about it all the time, His people want Free Worship, They want to stop being Kidnapped by the Thalmor, they want to stop being led by an Empire to weak to lead itself.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The Empire wouldn't have to worry about the White Gold Concordant being breached if they lessened their grip on Skyrim and her people. He does think about it, he thinks about it all the time, His people want Free Worship, They want to stop being Kidnapped by the Thalmor, they want to stop being led by an Empire to weak to lead itself.

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The fact is they cant. The elves are too powerful and if the empire fell cause of this Martin Septim(Talos) would have created it for nothing cause it would all be destroyed. Elves are surpeior to men, and would crush them. The emperor is protecting the empire that Talos put into place. Once Talos worship is reinstated it breaches the white gold concordant. Because those were some of the terms. Im telling you i get why they want it but its the fact its impossible to have it.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The Empire wouldn't have to worry about the White Gold Concordant being breached if they lessened their grip on Skyrim and her people. He does think about it, he thinks about it all the time, His people want Free Worship, They want to stop being Kidnapped by the Thalmor, they want to stop being led by an Empire to weak to lead itself.

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The fact is they cant. The elves are too powerful and if the empire fell cause of this Martin Septim(Talos) would have created it for nothing cause it would all be destroyed.

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Talos was Tiber Septim, Martin Septim was a descendant of Tiber Septim who was supposed to be Emperor of Cyrodiil in 3E 433 but sacrificed himself to save all of Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon. The Empire wouldn't be destroyed it would lose Skyrim but it wouldn't be destroyed.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Elves are surpeior to men, and would crush them. The emperor is protecting the empire that Talos put into place. Once Talos worship is reinstated it breaches the white gold concordant. Because those were some of the terms. Im telling you i get why they want it but its the fact its impossible to have it.

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It's not impossible to have it, if Skyrim separates from The Empire they can Worship Talos.

Raijin said:

Not that anyone cares but my lack of participation in this thread was caused by a bad migraine that last for what seems to be forever. I'm somewhat recovered so be patient with me.

Jeremius said:

LegateFasendil said:

Hmmm. Well we don't worship the Dossier silly.

As far as the Thalmor are concerned, their feelings about superiority run parallel to Nord feelings of honor.

BOTH are justifiable. However, you can't really have an Empire unless everyone can get along and acknowledge a common superiority.

I don't worship the Dossier, I admire it's purity... it follows no delusions... has no respect of person, no fear of what it is or what you and I think about it. It just is what it is... Even though I'm Imperial... now... I must admit the Dossier is an oddity. How many times do you suppose people looked over it, never even noticed it? There's certainly no mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not here to give you all the answers or to force you Raijin into thinking my way. I'm just saying it like it is. Make of it what you will.

I'll say this though, the truth usually points to itself.

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Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?

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That part is what makes no sense. The dossier also mentions "indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed" Exactly what does that mean? How is the Thalmor indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks? Is their any evidence without voicing an opinion that truly backs this up? Because of all the time that I've spent playing on this game I could not find a lore or a journal that says that the Stormcloaks are indirectly being aided by the Thalmor? I can't accept the Dossier as accurate information considering the fact that theirs nothing that indicates that the Thalmor are financially support the Stormcloaks.

The incident in Helgan is not irreverent.

Elenwen: "General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I'm taking custody of these prisoners."

General Tullius: By the authority of the Imperial Legion you are NOT taking custody of these prisoners.

Elenwen: "Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"

General Tullius: I don't give a fluff what the terms of the White-Gold Concordat says... you ain't taking these prisoners.

Elenwen: "You're making a terrible mistake!"

General Tullius: Go suck on a magical staff and come back to me when you have results.

The only way that I can accept this is if the Empire did a complete 180 in strength and power, and that the Thalmor found out from a legit source that the Empire retook back Hammerfell, and that the Thalmor are getting nervous. Is this why Tullius didn't get the men that he truly desired in Skyrim? Tullius had to heavily depend on locals to deal with the Stormcloak rebellion?

Who knows.

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It won't happen, Empire is still in recovery. As someone who has been thru a very traumatic incident and went thru Recovery process afterwards, I assure you the Empire will be for many years trying to recover. It's not a sign of weakness, it doesn't mean it's a dead and "dying Empire", that's just life.

What you have to decide is one of two things. Either, you:

1) Have the faith to stand with the Empire in it's darkest hour

OR

2) Have lost faith in the Empire to the point where you feel that *any* alternative is better... NOT just Ulfric.

It seems that you want the situation to turn around to your standard and would like the Empire to meet your expectations. This is not reasonable because the Empire can't do this. You have to be willing to lay it all down for the Empire, <no matter> what shape she is in. Which is a hard thing to do.

Now, the other side of this discussion, is keep in mind the Thalmor WANT the Empire dead. When you consider the Empire in that light, well, that's all you really need to be an Imperial.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

BoethiahsaBane said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The Empire wouldn't have to worry about the White Gold Concordant being breached if they lessened their grip on Skyrim and her people. He does think about it, he thinks about it all the time, His people want Free Worship, They want to stop being Kidnapped by the Thalmor, they want to stop being led by an Empire to weak to lead itself.

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The fact is they cant. The elves are too powerful and if the empire fell cause of this Martin Septim(Talos) would have created it for nothing cause it would all be destroyed.

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Talos was Tiber Septim, Martin Septim was a descendant of Tiber Septim who was supposed to be Emperor of Cyrodiil in 3E 433 but sacrificed himself to save all of Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon. The Empire wouldn't be destroyed it would lose Skyrim but it wouldn't be destroyed.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Elves are surpeior to men, and would crush them. The emperor is protecting the empire that Talos put into place. Once Talos worship is reinstated it breaches the white gold concordant. Because those were some of the terms. Im telling you i get why they want it but its the fact its impossible to have it.

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It's not impossible to have it, if Skyrim separates from The Empire they can Worship Talos.

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No, no, no. Just... stop. An Empire is not one Province. This is not the Empire State of Cyrodil. You have to understand Imperialism and the Thalmor want to liquidate man's Imperialism so then it would be their turn to rule as much as possible to rule in Tamriel.

If the Empire loses Skyrim, it's destroyed:

- Logistically (Can't maintain supply lines to few remaining Imperial holdings)
- Politically (No provincial politician will back a weak Emperor / Council, esp if said Empire can't re-enforce them)
- Economically (Economically speaking the Empire would be toast without Skyrim and Skyrim's agriculture will suffer without the Empire)
- Militarily (By contradiction I can prove you wrong. The only reason the Empire survived the war was because of the Nord Warrior and Breton Battlemage Legions, therefore, it must be an Empire to continue to hold Highrock and Skyrim, where these soldiers train from)
- The WGC will become a Religion in Cyrodil because there will then be no hope of saving anyone from the WGC outside of Skyrim. Cyrodil and Highrock will be on their own, on sep sides of Tamriel and at the mercy of the Thalmor and their allies. You'll be liberating Skyrim from the WGC but damming the people in Cyrodil and Highrock from having any chance to unite against the Thalmor. Those states will, without the Empire, could be absorbed by the Thalmor or will live in the shadow of kingdom come with no hope of rescue and the death of the Empire kills any hope of real unity.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

If the Empire does support Skyrim during the war, it's not for you, it's for the Nords and people who will be in Skyrim, mistreated and shunned for being supporters of the Empire.

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But if the Empire are going to even stand a chance in this war, they'll have to side with the Stormcloaks if they want even a chance in the war. The Stormcloaks will agree to it if the Empire is fighting the Dominion. It's just like the Ebonheart Pact where Argonia Morrowind, and Skyrim all sided with each other for the greater good even though they all had a beef with each other. Skyrim had a problem with Morrowind Argonia had a problem with Morrowind and Morrowind hated both sides. But they all came together to protect their land and to fight against the other two sides. [/quote]

Considering during the Questline all three sides are at each other's throats the entire time, it doesn't say much. The Daggerfall covenant was also in a similar situation because the Bretons and Redguards were both always sacking orsinium. However due to the connections between the three kinds, High King Emeric, King F'harijad and The orc leader who's name escapes me. Yet they are actually the strongest military wise.

The most prosperous is the Aldmeri and the most unstable is the Ebonheart pact. That said, the Ebonheart pact has their upsides, but boy, when I had to deal with that stubborn fool of a Nordic King he whined like a baby when I called him out on being weak

As for the topic at hand, I have no doubt the Stormcloaks will be riding on the Empire's coat tails. However, it's a moot point. Not only will that make the Nords look weak for needing the Empire anyway, but just solidify that if they win, they slaughtered their brothers for nothing. The Empire has full intention of restoring the Nine Divine Pantheon which they created to begin with.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

It was about how the Empire is not strong enough to take on the Dominion alone.

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I'll just look back eventually. Been sick lately so excuse my usual lack of enthusiasm.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

It's not Rocket Science Ivory, you put a bullet in a slot in a rectangular metallic object and repeat 29 times. Then you put the metallic object in another slot in the weapon and pull a lever back. Now you have a loaded weapon.

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I'm going to assume you've either never held a Miltary grade weapon, or you have no experience with guns.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

We're arguing whether or not a citizen stands a chance against a trained army, and they do, its been done before.

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Show me.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

BoethiahsaBane said:

And the empire would love to have talos worship reinstated but its the fact that the ageement with the Thalmar "the white gold concordant" that prevents the empire from being destroyed says that they are not allowed to worship talos. So if that ageement would be broken then the empire would be attacked and they would all be dead or enslaved by the elves. It already almost happened once during the great war.

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I realize this, but that's why its so imperative for Skyrim to have its Independence. So Skyrim can be free from the Witch Elves of the Aldmeri Dominion instead of lick their boots

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Question for you. About this Independence from "witch elves" and all this "boot licking".

Now, I know I don't have to tell you that some Nords are into the "black arts" and esp the Bretons really are into Magic. If being a "witch elf" means being like an elven spellcaster who messes with minds, what do we do about the Bretons? Your next door neighbors? What if it takes a "witch elf" to stop a "witch elf"? How is an army of Nord warriors who don't understand magic supposed to be able to defend themselves from it?

And, what good does it do to liberate people from licking elven boots, when they'll instead be forced to lick Ulfric's boots? Elven boots are probably a hell of a lot cleaner anyways. Ulfric's will be covered by the blood of Nords who would not surrender their thinking to him as well as the blood of many innocent Khajits, Argonians, Elves and other "undesirables". All so Ulfric can be High King.

At least the Elves aren't selling each other out over a piece of jewelry.

BoethiahsaBane said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Again not true, Ulfric truly wan'ts Talos Worship reinstated. This is evident when he took Markarth back for this reason and this reason alone. He Also prays to Talos every week in the Temple, and made a speech about it at the moot.


Jarl Elisif was not the only person there that day. All of Torygs advisers were there. Sybille Stentor said that he did and Sybille Stentor is WAY more reliable than Elisif.



Even though the game says otherwise. The only way you could "shout someone apart" was if you had the Hermaeus Mora shout increase, which you can only obtain by having read the Black Book "Epistolary Acumen" which even then doesn't shout them apart but rather Disintegrates them.

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And the empire would love to have talos worship reinstated but its the fact that the ageement with the Thalmar "the white gold concordant" that prevents the empire from being destroyed says that they are not allowed to worship talos. So if that ageement would be broken then the empire would be attacked and they would all be dead or enslaved by the elves. It already almost happened once during the great war.

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See, you're someone whose had to live on the edge for a while. Prob a survivor, like myself. You understand the sacrifices that must be made for a greater good, even if you will not enjoy those benefits yourself. Many people on here don't like what they see on paper, so they reject it. Life, is written but not lived on paper. And sometimes we have to do terrible things just to live to see another day. It's like sometimes in order to find yourself you have to lose yourself. You know, put "self" last and just do what needs to be done first.

And that reminds me of this old song by Johnny Ca$h: "I Walk the Line"

Ivory said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

If the Empire does support Skyrim during the war, it's not for you, it's for the Nords and people who will be in Skyrim, mistreated and shunned for being supporters of the Empire.

Click to expand...

But if the Empire are going to even stand a chance in this war, they'll have to side with the Stormcloaks if they want even a chance in the war. The Stormcloaks will agree to it if the Empire is fighting the Dominion. It's just like the Ebonheart Pact where Argonia Morrowind, and Skyrim all sided with each other for the greater good even though they all had a beef with each other. Skyrim had a problem with Morrowind Argonia had a problem with Morrowind and Morrowind hated both sides. But they all came together to protect their land and to fight against the other two sides.

Click to expand...

Considering during the Questline all three sides are at each other's throats the entire time, it doesn't say much. The Daggerfall covenant was also in a similar situation because the Bretons and Redguards were both always sacking orsinium. However due to the connections between the three kinds, High King Emeric, King F'harijad and The orc leader who's name escapes me. Yet they are actually the strongest military wise.

The most prosperous is the Aldmeri and the most unstable is the Ebonheart pact. That said, the Ebonheart pact has their upsides, but boy, when I had to deal with that stubborn fool of a Nordic King he whined like a baby when I called him out on being weak

As for the topic at hand, I have no doubt the Stormcloaks will be riding on the Empire's coat tails. However, it's a moot point. Not only will that make the Nords look weak for needing the Empire anyway, but just solidify that if they win, they slaughtered their brothers for nothing. The Empire has full intention of restoring the Nine Divine Pantheon which they created to begin with[/quote]
Wouldn't it be the Empire that looks weak since they need the Stormcloaks to survive?

Ivory said:

I'm going to assume you've either never held a Miltary grade weapon, or you have no experience with guns.

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Tell me otherwise.

Ivory said:

Show me.

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I'm going to get a lot of plops for this but, The American Revolution.

LegateFasendil said:

Question for you. About this Independence from "witch elves" and all this "boot licking".

Now, I know I don't have to tell you that some Nords are into the "black arts" and esp the Bretons really are into Magic. If being a "witch elf" means being like an elven spellcaster who messes with minds, what do we do about the Bretons? Your next door neighbors? What if it takes a "witch elf" to stop a "witch elf"? How is an army of Nord warriors who don't understand magic supposed to be able to defend themselves from it?

And, what good does it do to liberate people from licking elven boots, when they'll instead be forced to lick Ulfric's boots? Elven boots are probably a hell of a lot cleaner anyways. Ulfric's will be covered by the blood of Nords who would not surrender their thinking to him as well as the blood of many innocent Khajits, Argonians, Elves and other "undesirables". All so Ulfric can be High King.

At least the Elves aren't selling each other out over a piece of jewelry.

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Sorry, I forgot you were here, Legate. I say "Witch Elves" because they are evil, maniacal, Elves who only wish to see man be destroyed. I did not mean to offend your race. Ulfric seeks for the sons and daughters of Skyrim whether they be Nord or not to fight for her(Skyrim), not to lick his boots. And if you think that Radical Brunwulf holds any water, let me remind you that
1.) He is in love with a racist against Dunmer Elda Early-Dawn (which doesn't make any sense)
2.) He's the only citizen in Windhelm or in Skyrim who says this.
There is no evidence to suggest that Ulfric Stormcloak provides aid to only Nords and nobody else. Even if he does its better than the Empire charging people for protection. At least he does it for free. There are plenty of reasons we fight his war and Only ONE of them is so Ulfric can be High King. the others are for Freedom, and the right to fight the Thalmor rather than lick their boots.

LegateFasendil said:

No, no, no. Just... stop. An Empire is not one Province. This is not the Empire State of Cyrodil. You have to understand Imperialism and the Thalmor want to liquidate man's Imperialism so then it would be their turn to rule as much as possible to rule in Tamriel.

If the Empire loses Skyrim, it's destroyed:

- Logistically (Can't maintain supply lines to few remaining Imperial holdings)
- Politically (No provincial politician will back a weak Emperor / Council, esp if said Empire can't re-enforce them)
- Economically (Economically speaking the Empire would be toast without Skyrim and Skyrim's agriculture will suffer without the Empire)
- Militarily (By contradiction I can prove you wrong. The only reason the Empire survived the war was because of the Nord Warrior and Breton Battlemage Legions, therefore, it must be an Empire to continue to hold Highrock and Skyrim, where these soldiers train from)
- The WGC will become a Religion in Cyrodil because there will then be no hope of saving anyone from the WGC outside of Skyrim. Cyrodil and Highrock will be on their own, on sep sides of Tamriel and at the mercy of the Thalmor and their allies. You'll be liberating Skyrim from the WGC but damming the people in Cyrodil and Highrock from having any chance to unite against the Thalmor. Those states will, without the Empire, could be absorbed by the Thalmor or will live in the shadow of kingdom come with no hope of rescue and the death of the Empire kills any hope of real unity.

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Your Empire is dead anyway, that's one of the reasons I and so many others fought in the first place. Either way your Empire is dead. And I prefer Skyrim my homeland to not be dragged down with it!