Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Better yet... can you give us a reason as to why it shouldn't be brought up? I mean, written by the Thalmor intel community, it's all factual, Thalmor have no reason to lie in there. It's solid, full-proof contradiction to Ulfric and his cause.

It's like... having your beer and drinking it too OR paying for Gold at the price of Silver.

It's like... you're supposed to be at work @ 8:00am and you say na @#$% that, I'll be in around noon and still get paid for starting @ 8:00am.

It's like... when one of those self-righteous Stormies starts preaching hate about Talos and how bad the Empire is and I walks by in Imp uniform and just put my hand over his mouth in mid sentence and be like, "relax, it's all good, have some faith man" and the dude is totally like... "ok, my bad."

That's how good that Dossier is.

It's really quite damming. Now, most Imperials or the token Imp sympathizer will be able to do sufficient damage just by bringing it up. The truth however, is hidden in the details of the document and is far more damaging to Ulfric and his ilk.

If it were Fallout 3, it would be the difference between pulling an Assault Rifle on someone vs pulling a Good Plasma Rifle on same person or thing.

There's seriously ALOT of good stuff in there.

Can you give me 1 good reason why I should take the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier seriously? That I should become an Ulfric Stormcloak dossier worshiper? I'm sorry but for an organization full of severely narcissistic and self-obsessed elves who thinks their the superior beings, I refuse to take seriously other then the fact that they all need to be liquidated for the betterment of the world.



Hmmm. Well we don't worship the Dossier silly. :)

As far as the Thalmor are concerned, their feelings about superiority run parallel to Nord feelings of honor.

BOTH are justifiable. However, you can't really have an Empire unless everyone can get along and acknowledge a common superiority.

I don't worship the Dossier, I admire it's purity... it follows no delusions... has no respect of person, no fear of what it is or what you and I think about it. It just is what it is... Even though I'm Imperial... now... I must admit the Dossier is an oddity. How many times do you suppose people looked over it, never even noticed it? There's certainly no mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not here to give you all the answers or to force you Raijin into thinking my way. I'm just saying it like it is. Make of it what you will.

I'll say this though, the truth usually points to itself.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Better yet... can you give us a reason as to why it shouldn't be brought up? I mean, written by the Thalmor intel community, it's all factual, Thalmor have no reason to lie in there. It's solid, full-proof contradiction to Ulfric and his cause.

It's like... having your beer and drinking it too OR paying for Gold at the price of Silver.

It's like... you're supposed to be at work @ 8:00am and you say na @#$% that, I'll be in around noon and still get paid for starting @ 8:00am.

It's like... when one of those self-righteous Stormies starts preaching hate about Talos and how bad the Empire is and I walks by in Imp uniform and just put my hand over his mouth in mid sentence and be like, "relax, it's all good, have some faith man" and the dude is totally like... "ok, my bad."

That's how good that Dossier is.

It's really quite damming. Now, most Imperials or the token Imp sympathizer will be able to do sufficient damage just by bringing it up. The truth however, is hidden in the details of the document and is far more damaging to Ulfric and his ilk.

If it were Fallout 3, it would be the difference between pulling an Assault Rifle on someone vs pulling a Good Plasma Rifle on same person or thing.

There's seriously ALOT of good stuff in there.

Can you give me 1 good reason why I should take the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier seriously? That I should become an Ulfric Stormcloak dossier worshiper? I'm sorry but for an organization full of severely narcissistic and self-obsessed elves who thinks their the superior beings, I refuse to take seriously other then the fact that they all need to be liquidated for the betterment of the world.



Hmmm. Well we don't worship the Dossier silly. :)

As far as the Thalmor are concerned, their feelings about superiority run parallel to Nord feelings of honor.

BOTH are justifiable. However, you can't really have an Empire unless everyone can get along and acknowledge a common superiority.

I don't worship the Dossier, I admire it's purity... it follows no delusions... has no respect of person, no fear of what it is or what you and I think about it. It just is what it is... Even though I'm Imperial... now... I must admit the Dossier is an oddity. How many times do you suppose people looked over it, never even noticed it? There's certainly no mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not here to give you all the answers or to force you Raijin into thinking my way. I'm just saying it like it is. Make of it what you will.

I'll say this though, the truth usually points to itself.

Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Either buy the books or ask Rimfaxe.

Hmm, would it even be legal if I gave a part of the book away? I mean, for a proper perspective he'd need to see the text, not just another opinion/subjective understanding of it.

Are all Nords two handed beserkers and light infantry?

Farengar begs to differ.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Yeah it'd be fine. Not like you're posting the entire novel, just quoting it.

The real question would be if you could be bothered doing it.

Sure, if asked nicely.

Quinn-eyebrow.gif


Oh, and only if nobody ever goes on like "How do we know she really quoted it from the book, and didn't make it up?"
Otherwise I'll burn their house down.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
He's the only one in Skyrim. He isn't going to live forever, he could very well spend his life time rebuilding Skyrim.
Not necessarily, I mean sure he could spend his whole life rebuilding, I won't argue that. But he isn't the only tongue in Skyrim. I mean technically we have the Greybeards and the Ebony Warrior.

He's been captured three times. If the Thu'um could save him, make him own all. Why hasn't he done it? He's a pretty pl*** tongue if he doesn't use the voice when it could be the most handy.
We've been over this time and time again and it's gotten us nowhere.

Well he is one? Doesn't make everyone related to him or close to him the same. Be like Skald, he's associated with the Stormcloaks, doesn't make every supporter like him.
He is, No it doesn't I agree, and I hate Skald. lets end this one nice and simply hmmm?

You can't be open about it, say there is an Thalmor Agent. You have to kill him, but you can't expose yourself as being an Imperial Agent, so you need to kill him in secret. Are you going to walk into the local barracks and go "Hey, I'm going to stab this guy six times. But don't worry, he's a Thalmor."

Or do you just go kill him, make it look like a mugging or maybe he goes missing. The Thalmor know, but they don't know. Could he have been assassinated or some other fate?
Then fluffin' tell him hes a Thalmor agent. When he finds out he's an old helpless man it would likely have the same three outcomes,
1. He can't bring himself to do it, and doesn't, Thus, he gets kicked off the Penitus Occulatus
2. He lets his guard down and dies.
3. He kills him and becomes an agent
Simple. There's no need for this crypticism.

Well I don't have the novels on me. If you want the reasons the book gives, that entire conversation. Either buy the books or ask Rimfaxe.
Well, I'll do that.

It doesn't matter, I don't really care or know much about the American Revolution. But I do know, it hasn't got much to do with this topic. There have been many Americans bashing other Americans for bringing up the Revolution when debating for the Stormcloaks.

I don't know why it would sound familiar, it's you Stormcloaks who keep getting ambushed.
First, That happened once not multiple times. Second, they sound VERY much alike. Lets go over the steps, shall we:
1.)Local People don't like the way they are being treated and revolt against the local Authorities.
2.)Only about half of the country does this, the other half stays loyal.
3.)The rebels fight them off and they become a separate country.
4.)The rest of the Empire invades. They fight in a guerrilla fighting style against their respective Empire (Dominion in the Stormcloaks case) which is better equipped and trained
5.)the rebels get secret and deliberate aid from other countries (If Stormcloaks fight Dominion this will most likely happen, seeing as though everybody, but the Dominion, is an enemy to the Dominion).
Now lets go over the other steps that aren't:
1.) Fighting for freedom of Religion and the death of their protective Empire rather than fighting because of excessive Taxes and unnecessary laws
2.) It takes place in Skyrim and not 1770's America

Of course they do. The Aldmeri Dominion has to build inside Valenwood.
Or do they? Do we know this? no we don't. As a matter of fact we know they wouldn't risk it because they led a coup to capture Valenwood in the first place. Obviously the Dominion fears their power and wants to use it to their advantage.

Why would we invade Black Marsh? They're not sided with the Aldmeri Dominion, and they're not impossible to invade. Tiber didn't need to invade Black Marsh, but Legions have fought there I believe. They use a special armor that was designed by an Argonian black smith.
I never said you would. I was just stating it was.

I don't see any on your side. Why do the Stormcloaks stand a better chance at invading the Aldmeri Dominion?
We don't and I never stated we did.

Numidium was used to defeat Summerset Isle. The Empire does have a fairly good chance, the Thalmor are at war with the Psijic Order. Wouldn't be the first time Psijic's conjured up a storm to destroy an enemy fleet.
As well as Valenwood. A lesser known fact but still one nonetheless.

There are Khajiit who consider them saviors. But we'll send in the Third Legion, I'm sure they haven't forgot them. Just install a Military Governor for awhile, there are Khajiit who oppose the Thalmor.
The relationship between the Imperials and the Khajiit was tolerable, The relationship between the Khajiit and the Dominion is a good one.

Wtf does she have to do with anything?
Well she's one of the reasons The Khajiit are loyal to the Dominion. Sure this was all the way back to the second Dominion but, still.

Pretty good, we kept the Thalmor General hanging off the White-Gold Towert, alive for thirty three days.
So you don't care that 12,000 men were annihilated? As long as he's hanging from the Tower, its all good then?

I can't, we don't know everything in Cyrodiil. But the Imperial Legion has several Generals, given by Tullius' statement in Season Unending that he can't accept the terms or he'd be recalled and replaced.
But he accepts them and he isn't recalled.

Really? How do you work all this out? Why would a Breton be a better Battlemage? Game play wise, yeah. Lore wise? Can you give me loads of Breton Battlemages? Where does it say Imperials train accordingly, based on race?
Well the fact that there are separated legions should be a clue, also Bretons wouldn't make better Battlemages, my mistake, but they certainly make great Sorcerers: Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of their home province of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka.

Are all Nords two handed beserkers and light infantry?
There certainly are quite a bit.


There were Battlemages with the soldiers, or did they just vanish every timethe Imperial Legions fought the Aldmeri? If they were so superior, why is the Empire still standing?
Well then she would talk about Destroying Elven Battlemages not Soldiers. They're two different units. Also, "the High Elves are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races. However, they are also somewhat vulerable to fire, frost and shock."
They are NATURALLY GIFTED. This is undeniable. They can be beaten by better mages because they are susceptible to magic, but they are naturally better than other races at all of the arcane arts.

Game play stats isn't lore. Bosmer are credited as being the best archers, why? Because so many of them used archery. Does that mean a Bosmer baby is an expert archer? No.
They had to adapt to their environment. They're the best because it is in their culture to use Bows and Arrows to take down small and large game. They aren't considered the best because there are a lot of Bosmer Archers, They're considered the best because they are Bosmer.

Bretons in game look to be better Battlemages. Yet lore wise, Imperials have had more Battlemages.
Quantity =/= Quality

Part of their culture. Redguard society is extremely martial, and nearly everyone is expected to have a grasp of basic weaponry and combat, although only the rulers are generally expected to have any knowledge of strategy, formations and tactics.

They are a highly disciplined and enterprising people, having centuries of experience with warfare in their homeland. Their warriors are acknowledged to be among the best in the world. The Redguards are also known for their naval prowess, and their fleets have proved a match for the Empire's best armadas, as seen during the Stros M'Kai revolt. Stros M'Kai and some parts of mainland Hammerfell hold many Dwemer ruins, and some young Redguards seeking to enter military service must brave the dangers of these ruins. Most of their holidays and traditions seem to revolve around either the celebration of natural phenomena or the commemoration of great battles and warriors.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguard#Society_and_Religion
And that's why I generalize the people in TES games, because they are meant to be generalized. You're going to immediately assume A Nord with Heavy armor and a Two Handed Axe is going to be a better warrior than say a Bosmer with the same stats and weaponry. And don't say you won't, because you will. remember:
"Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race."

Naturally. But the Wild Hunt is dangerous to both sides. It isn't something used lightly, because it'll kill Bosmer, Imperial or Altmer alike.
Charging however many legions into Valenwood while they destroy the flora isn't going to be taken lightly by the Bosmer.

A UESP Moderator's opinion? Seriously?
I'm saying the Notes taken were a UESP moderator's opinion not that they were offensive.

So what? He is a General who was sent there. He isn't there to learn Nordic culture, but to put down a rebellion and ensure the Moot meets.
He probably doesn't even know or care what the moot is.

The Greybeards have never involved themselves in politics. So yeah, maybe he is a little ignorant on what they want with him.
These things are important he has to know them.

He isn't looking to make friends. He's doing a job. He isn't there forever.
Elisif: You'll always be a friend to Skyrim
Every Nord Ever: Not if he doesn't even know where I go when I die he won't

Why? He's good at his job, he's dealing with a rebellion.
But if he doesn't even know where the Nords go when they die, how can he have a proper understanding of their intentions and fighting style?

Because they believe they are descended from Gods and that Mundas is their prison. I'm not saying they will, but it is hinted at. Esbern mentions they want to probably end the world on their terms and the Thalmor during the Mages quest goes on about the power to unmake the world.
Sure, I see that. but then they'd have to destroy an Elven Structure that they put a lot of effort and man, oh sorry, Mer hours on.

It is what the Stormcloaks plan to do. Take their army to the Aldmeri Dominion. Galmar and Ulfric both mention it.
Well, I hope not, otherwise we're dead. We need to let them come to us. "In time the Elves will seek to rule the world again, and it will be Skyrim who leads Tamriel in those times."\

Did you expect people not to die in a war?
Yeah I did, but its a travesty to let so many die within 6 days. Its like its own Gettysburg.

Um, maybe the fact Titus II didn't get captured within several weeks.
I'm pretty sure it was just less than a year, but, whatever.

Emperors don't always lead the Imperial army. We don't know if he doesn't or does have an heir, but Skyrim doesn't advance in time. Everything goes on within 201. It won't always be listed the next heir. If the Mede Dynasty had just ended, blood line gone. Isn't that something that would be mentioned?

I don't know, Nord Legates? Ulfric was captured before the Imperial City fell, well before General Jonna arrived.
No, Titus did, Titus gave the order, I wasn't asking a direct question. Titus gave the order that led to their deaths. He didn't foresee The Aldmeri attack from the west and it led to his troops being hit from two sides.A stupid, stupid mistake. Also Ulfric wasn't a Legate.

The same way they did when the Imperial Legion had garrisons within Valenwood.
You haven't been in Valenwood since 4E 29. Thats a long time to remember old tactics for a now useless province to the Empire. As well, even if you did remember you would have to factor in how The Imperial Garrisons defended themselves. The Imperial Garrisons in Valenwood were in forts or camps, they were easy to defend. The Imperial army will be marching, non-stop, cutting down tree limb to tree limb to get through the jungle, all while defending themselves from unfamiliar Beasts that look like something Straight out of Greek Mythology and Hell:"Before man or mer came to Valenwood, it was home to a salmagundi of creatures and strange civilizations. Centaurs, hippogriffs, satyrs, minotaurs, giants, basilisks, fairy folk, hydra, and intelligent apes all flourished there before the first Aldmeri stepped onto its shores." Like all Elves, the Aldmer had to adapt to their environment, and they became the present day Bosmer. For the support of Y'ffre, in helping them adapt, the Bosmer promised not to harm the forest.
These creatures still live here. This isn't even mentioning the great Griffins and Werevultures roaming Valenwood's sky's searching for easy prey, all while coming to a final battle against all the horrors of the Wild Hunt that destroyed King Borgas' army of enchanted armed ancient Nord warriors. It won't end well. Thats all I can tell you.

The Empire isn't sailing from Skyrim, that would be suicide.
Of course not. That would be Lunacy.

Not really, technically we have a better chance. Since neither side wins the Civil War, the Empire still exists with or without Tullius and Skyrim.
I mean you have about the same chance as survival in Valenwood as the Nords do against the Dominion in a Naval battle
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Stop being such a brat. You were wrong. Just get your facts straight and I wouldn't have to correct you. Stop seeing everything as a personal attack.
Fine, I'm wrong. I was wrong, I've admitted time and Time again but somehow you seem to think I don't. Probably because you don't read all of my posts. Oh, and please, continue to call me a kid, That doesn't require a superiority Complex. That makes you such a wise Elder. How much older than me are you anyway? I want to know,why do you call me Kid, when you're literally the same age as me?

You mean Skyrim? Or do you plan to leave Skyrim in the ruins it is in after the Civil War?
Ivory, Do you think the Stormcloaks are just going to fight in the 2nd Great War by themselves or is the Empire going to help when the times are Dire.

Sure, I will call you out and laugh at you. But not once have I called you a Retard, Asshole, Pretentious or outright disrespected you as a person. I've mocked your inability to accept you're wrong from time to time and egged you on when you've said such nasty comments. Ex, the picture.
Even though I've accepted that I'm wrong multiple times and only on this part of the argument have I made a fit about it. Also I consider calling me Backwards, Illogical and a Kid, well, offensive.So yeah you have outright disrespected as a person. And you know what, I'm sorry for calling you a Retard. does that make you feel better?

However, Raijin has been here far longer than you, and even when me and him go toe to toe, neither of us outright starts to demean the other in ways you have. Sure, me and Raijin might have gotten heated from time to time, what arguement doesn't? But when you start spouting insults like "Retard"? You're disrespecting not only us, but your entire argument.
And when you called me Backwards was that just a bad day for you or, what? Please Explain how you have never insulted even though your first post against me was a direct insult to me. Your first post against me for christ sakes. I wan't an answer,

We've consistently debunked this so I'm not gonna bother.
I wan't your explanation Ivory, I wasn't here for that.

1. Considering even the lowest level Thalmor is a lot more powerful than any farmer in the game, mechanics wise, I'll humor you. Provide some evidence or you're simply talking out your ass.
Farmers=Stormcloaks
Did you read the argument or are you just going to talk out of your ass? You seem to attack me for it all the time, and rightfully so.

2. Would an average american citizen who is fit but no war experience stand a chance against a solider of any caliber? Nope.
Are you suggesting the Average American Citizen that has an automatic weapon and equipment is completely defenseless?
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Yeah it'd be fine. Not like you're posting the entire novel, just quoting it.

The real question would be if you could be bothered doing it.

Sure, if asked nicely.

Quinn-eyebrow.gif


Oh, and only if nobody ever goes on like "How do we know she really quoted it from the book, and didn't make it up?"
Otherwise I'll burn their house down.

Rimfaxe, Can I please see a quote from the book that says the man Colin was supposed to assassinate was a Thalmor Agent? I promise I won't try to contradict you (Not like I could anyway because I never read the book) :)
 

Vatonage

Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?
You're right, they wouldn't write lies, because to THEM it's true. Doesn't mean it is. The Elven leadership is clueless about things going on in Skyrim. Look at the Dragon Dossier.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
why do you call me Kid, when you're literally the same age as me?

Because of the Childish name calling.

Ivory, Do you think the Stormcloaks are just going to fight in the 2nd Great War by themselves or is the Empire going to help when the times are Dire.

The Empire is going to look out for the Empire. The Empire's people come first, above all before the rebels that betrayed the Empire.

If the Empire does support Skyrim during the war, it's not for you, it's for the Nords and people who will be in Skyrim, mistreated and shunned for being supporters of the Empire.


And when you called me Backwards was that just a bad day for you or, what? Please Explain how you have never insulted even though your first post against me was a direct insult to me. Your first post against me for christ sakes. I wan't an answer.
Did I call you backwards or did I call your thought process backwards? There is a difference. Smart people can make idiot choices. That doesn't mean they are an idiot. If I called you backwards personally, then I apologize but I'd like to see it.

I wan't your explanation Ivory, I wasn't here for that.

What was this question about again? Been awhile I stopped paying attention that far back. Lemme know and I'll get back to you.

Did you read the argument or are you just going to talk out of your ass? You seem to attack me for it all the time, and rightfully so.

The topic at hand was that we said an average Farmer with no experience in Combat would stand a chance. Not every farmer is a Stormcloak. That's where you're making miscalculation. Stormcloaks are somewhat trained. Sure some farmers are probably in the Rebellion, but most of the rebels are ex-imperial legion soldiers. You said farmers, which is incorrect to state every stormcloak as one.


Are you suggesting the Average American Citizen that has an automatic weapon and equipment is completely defenseless?

Compared to a fully trained tactical soldier? Yes. The average citizen does not know how to load ammunition, where the safety is or how to disarm it. Nor use a combat knife properly. Or use a grenade or look down the sights to a weapon. What qualifies as proper cover, what doesn't, what is considered a Kill shot, what isn't. How to track their enemy, how to disable a close combat opponent. I can keep going.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?
You're right, they wouldn't write lies, because to THEM it's true. Doesn't mean it is. The Elven leadership is clueless about things going on in Skyrim. Look at the Dragon Dossier (which is pretty much guesses and not meant to be trut).

I am not talking about dragons. I am talking about the mention of the Civil War.

The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.
Notice how it mentions that the death of Ulfric would have harmed their position due to the increase chance of an imperial victory? Why would they say that unless they know that the imperials winning gives them access to all the metal ore in Skyrim. As for the Stormcloak victory:
A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.
It does not give a single reason as to why it should be avoided. It makes no sense unless it is meant exactly as it is written.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Not necessarily, I mean sure he could spend his whole life rebuilding, I won't argue that. But he isn't the only tongue in Skyrim. I mean technically we have the Greybeards and the Ebony Warrior.

Ebony Warrior is dead and the Greybeards will not fight in a war.

Then fluffin' tell him hes a Thalmor agent. When he finds out he's an old helpless man it would likely have the same three outcomes,
1. He can't bring himself to do it, and doesn't, Thus, he gets kicked off the Penitus Occulatus
2. He lets his guard down and dies.
3. He kills him and becomes an agent
Simple. There's no need for this crypticism.

I don't remember what reasons the book gave, it was Colin's test. Not that everyone has the exact same test, it probably varies on the person.

Why would you tell them he's a Thalmor? They're not Penitus Oculatus yet, they've been given an order to carry out a task. Being observed on how they do it.

I don't think there is a "kicked off the Penitus Oculatus" more likely you'd be killed.

First, That happened once not multiple times.

Others have brought it up, across several threads on this forum.

Second, they sound VERY much alike.

One is a revolution, the other is a Civil War.

Lets go over the steps, shall we:
1.)Local People don't like the way they are being treated and revolt against the local Authorities.

Small number of local people, majority of support came when Ulfric killed Torygg.

2.)Only about half of the country does this, the other half stays loyal.

Half the country was against the American Revolution?

4.)The rest of the Empire invades. They fight in a guerrilla fighting style against their respective Empire (Dominion in the Stormcloaks case) which is better equipped and trained

The Nords won't fight guerrilla warfare, the Stormcloaks after the war plan to create nine different armies under the Jarls. Which given the nature of Nords, often doesn't work out well for them. Cause the Jarls bicker a lot, Hold wars are a common theme Pre-Empire days in Skyrim.

5.)the rebels get secret and deliberate aid from other countries (If Stormcloaks fight Dominion this will most likely happen, seeing as though everybody, but the Dominion, is an enemy to the Dominion).

If the Stormcloaks were fighting the Dominion in Skyrim, the Empire would be destroyed. Who would aid them anyway? The Dunmer have their own problems and haven't recovered. Hammerfell is devastated and High Rock is famous for political bickering.

Or do they? Do we know this? no we don't. As a matter of fact we know they wouldn't risk it because they led a coup to capture Valenwood in the first place. Obviously the Dominion fears their power and wants to use it to their advantage.

The Thalmor caused a coup in Valenwood because they didn't have the military power to take the place with complete warfare. The Empire at this time was stronger than they were. The Aldmeri Dominion is Valenwood & Summerset Isle.

They Dominion in TESO was building inside Valenwood, why would the Thalmor of the Fourth Era fear what their predecessors didn't?

As well as Valenwood. A lesser known fact but still one nonetheless.

The golem wasn't used on Valenwood, but the leadership of the Dominion in Summerset. It caused their surrender.

The relationship between the Imperials and the Khajiit was tolerable, The relationship between the Khajiit and the Dominion is a good one.

No it wasn't. There were Khajiit insurgents operating inside the Empire, over what they considered the stealing of their land. Elsweyr isn't impossible to control, the Khajiit are merely client states. They didn't fight for the Aldmeri during the Great War.

Well she's one of the reasons The Khajiit are loyal to the Dominion. Sure this was all the way back to the second Dominion but, still.

No she isn't, not anymore at least. She's been dead for over six hundred years, I think whatever influence she had, fell away by now.

So you don't care that 12,000 men were annihilated? As long as he's hanging from the Tower, its all good then?

12,000 men? You got those stats from? I'm not saying it is all good, people die in war. Thousands on both sides. But calling Titus II's tactics crap because people died is foolish, his tactics are what won the Imperial City back and eliminated the main Aldmeri army.

But he accepts them and he isn't recalled.

No, he gets a city.

Well the fact that there are separated legions should be a clue, also Bretons wouldn't make better Battlemages, my mistake, but they certainly make great Sorcerers

Many great Mages have come out of Skyrim. Race doesn't mean anything. There isn't separated Legions? Look at Morrowind, the Legion there had Imperials, Nords, Orcs. Look at Skyrim's Legions filled with Imperials, Redguards, Nords, Bretons etc.

Legions in different provinces may have larger numbers of the native race, that is natural because there are simply more of them in that province.

The Legion doesn't separate on race.

There certainly are quite a bit.

Not too many, many Stormcloaks are one handed.


Well then she would talk about Destroying Elven Battlemages not Soldiers. They're two different units. Also, "the High Elves are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races. However, they are also somewhat vulerable to fire, frost and shock."
They are NATURALLY GIFTED. This is undeniable. They can be beaten by better mages because they are susceptible to magic, but they are naturally better than other races at all of the arcane arts.

Actually she doesn't say soldiers, my mistake. "They ended up sacking the Imperial City. I was there, blasting apart young Elven men and women with Fireballs and Lightning Bolts."

Being naturally gifted doesn't make them the best. They still have to work at it.

They had to adapt to their environment. They're the best because it is in their culture to use Bows and Arrows to take down small and large game. They aren't considered the best because there are a lot of Bosmer Archers, They're considered the best because they are Bosmer.

They're considered the best because they trained, it was even theorized they invented the bow.

Being born Bosmer, doesn't make you a great archer. You have to work on skills, you're not born the best.

Quantity =/= Quality

Actually the quality of Imperial Battlemages was extremely good.

And that's why I generalize the people in TES games, because they are meant to be generalized. You're going to immediately assume A Nord with Heavy armor and a Two Handed Axe is going to be a better warrior than say a Bosmer with the same stats and weaponry. And don't say you won't, because you will.

No. Because I don't think like that, in-game doesn't mean it is like that in lore. Every race, even cultures today are generalized. But not every Bosmer is an archer, just like not every American has a gun.

I'm not saying that every race doesn't have their famous traits they're credited with. I'm saying just because you are that race, it doesn't mean you're gifted with the ability to wield a sword or shoot a bow. Swordsmanship requires training, same as marksmanship. People in TES aren't born with it in lore, except Altmer on being magically gifted, they are born with that reserve of magic. But it doesn't make them the best Mages.

Charging however many legions into Valenwood while they destroy the flora isn't going to be taken lightly by the Bosmer.

There are roads. The Aldmeri fought the Legions in their coup of Valenwood, they did attack and there were small battles. It isn't like Valenwood hasn't ever been attacked before.

I'm saying the Notes taken were a UESP moderator's opinion not that they were offensive.

Those are game files, what Bethesda write on certain dialogue. That is how they get facial expressions for the character artists or how they want the tone of a voice actor.

He probably doesn't even know or care what the moot is.

"Don't you Nords put any stock in your own traditions? I thought the Moot chose the king." - Tullius, Jagged Crown quest

These things are important he has to know them.

He knows it now.

Elisif: You'll always be a friend to Skyrim
Every Nord Ever: Not if he doesn't even know where I go when I die he won't

Well Rikke tells him, so he does know.

But if he doesn't even know where the Nords go when they die, how can he have a proper understanding of their intentions and fighting style?

Fighting style and intentions? How do you get that from 'Sovngarde'. Is that word supposed to mean a certain form of fighting or weapon usage?

Sure, I see that. but then they'd have to destroy an Elven Structure that they put a lot of effort and man, oh sorry, Mer hours on.

No plops. You really think they care? They believe they're Gods.

Well, I hope not, otherwise we're dead. We need to let them come to us. "In time the Elves will seek to rule the world again, and it will be Skyrim who leads Tamriel in those times."

You're invading them, good luck.

Yeah I did, but its a travesty to let so many die within 6 days. Its like its own Gettysburg.

It was a big battle, six days of continuous fighting. You think Tiber never lost soldiers? In fact Tiber Septim lost an entire Legion in a single ambush.

I'm pretty sure it was just less than a year, but, whatever.

Titus wasn't captured, and it took three years for the Aldmeri to sack the Imperial City.

No, Titus did, Titus gave the order, I wasn't asking a direct question. Titus gave the order that led to their deaths. He didn't foresee The Aldmeri attack from the west and it led to his troops being hit from two sides.A stupid, stupid mistake. Also Ulfric wasn't a Legate.

What? Legions from Skyrim were fighting in Cyrodill for awhile. Ulfric was captured before the Imperial City fell.

Also, what are you even on about? He didn't foresee trouble when trying to surround the main Aldmeri Dominion army? The Nord Legions weren't hit hard during the six days until the last of battle when the Aldmeri tried to retreat.

Those two counter attacks were slow, and not at once.

You haven't been in Valenwood since 4E 29. Thats a long time to remember old tactics for a now useless province to the Empire. As well, even if you did remember you would have to factor in how The Imperial Garrisons defended themselves.

It doesn't mean the creatures weren't documented. You think some random creature stands a chance against the entire Imperial army? Every province is home to various creatures, didn't stop armies.

The Imperial Garrisons in Valenwood were in forts or camps, they were easy to defend.

Thousands of soldiers vs random creature. I wonder who will win?

The Imperial army will be marching, non-stop, cutting down tree limb to tree limb to get through the jungle

Valenwood is a forest and it has roads.

all while defending themselves from unfamiliar Beasts that look like something Straight out of Greek Mythology and Hell:"Before man or mer came to Valenwood, it was home to a salmagundi of creatures and strange civilizations. Centaurs, hippogriffs, satyrs, minotaurs, giants, basilisks, fairy folk, hydra, and intelligent apes all flourished there before the first Aldmeri stepped onto its shores." Like all Elves, the Aldmer had to adapt to their environment, and they became the present day Bosmer. For the support of Y'ffre, in helping them adapt, the Bosmer promised not to harm the forest.

There were minotaurs in Cyrodiil, and ogres, goblins, bears, wolves, mountain lions, trolls... Oh my. Funny how they won't an issue for entire Legions.

The Stormcloaks wouldn't even have issues from these creatures, they tend to leave entire armies alone. Small patrols could be attacked, but not a large force.

These creatures still live here. This isn't even mentioning the great Griffins and Werevultures roaming Valenwood's sky's searching for easy prey,

Yeah, and they weren't problems for armies on the move. Do you think the Imperial Legion has never patrolled or moved locations between provinces/new soldiers/supplies?

Why would this be a problem for the Legion now, when it never has been.

all while coming to a final battle against all the horrors of the Wild Hunt that destroyed King Borgas' army of enchanted armed ancient Nord warriors. It won't end well. Thats all I can tell you.

Borgas didn't have an army of enchanted Nord warriors, that was Ysgramor. Also the Wild Hunt, while it is a scary thing. It doesn't happen any time Valenwood is attacked or at war.

I mean you have about the same chance as survival in Valenwood as the Nords do against the Dominion in a Naval battle

Says who? Valenwood isn't the worst province for military engagements. Elswyer and Black Marsh are more annoying due to jungles and swamps.

The Imperial Legion in battle comes up with interesting ways of doing things. During the Second Era they marched under a lake, water breathing cast on the entire army. During Umbriel, they were imbued with flight and tried an air assault on the floating island.
 
Ulfric murdered Torygg therefore guilty. Ulfric only cares for himself and becoming high king, so i always join the Imperials no matter what. Just love decapitating ulfric. Also the imperial legieon has no choice but to enfore talos worship ban. The elves recked them during the great war and would still do it again. So i get why. Its the only way to hold together the empire.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Rimfaxe, Can I please see a quote from the book that says the man Colin was supposed to assassinate was a Thalmor Agent? I promise I won't try to contradict you (Not like I could anyway because I never read the book) :)

Since you asked me soo nicely...
Flower-Blushing-In-Disneys-Bambi.gif


I've written out the parts that I personally think are significant; the rest is mostly just what Colin/the Penitus Oculatus guy are doing/thinking, and he doesn't have any clue throughout the book(s) anyway.

About the old fella:
He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses.

Oh, and to help with the Thalmor arguments:

...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer.

"They are in everything, these days."

There's another part in the book which mentions ~50 Imperial sympathizers/rebels in Valenwood killed, but I can't find it right now.
The latter quote makes me though; if they were in everything back then, how widespread are they now...?
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Rimfaxe, Can I please see a quote from the book that says the man Colin was supposed to assassinate was a Thalmor Agent? I promise I won't try to contradict you (Not like I could anyway because I never read the book) :)

Since you asked me soo nicely...
Flower-Blushing-In-Disneys-Bambi.gif


I've written out the parts that I personally think are significant; the rest is mostly just what Colin/the Penitus Oculatus guy are doing/thinking, and he doesn't have any clue throughout the book(s) anyway.

About the old fella:
He was just standing there, leaning against the banister of the bridge, staring off toward the lighthouse. He came here each Loredas, after visiting his horse at the stables. Often he met someone here; there was a brief conversation, and they would part. He never spoke to the same person twice.

After some chit-chat Colin listens to about how much the old guy likes ships and stuff:
"Well, it's simple today. You can tell them there's nothing new. And if anyone asks, tell them that no food, no wine, no lover's kiss is as beautiful as a long, deep, breath." (The latter part sounds a bit like some sort of passphrase...)

The only answer Colin gets is this here: "You don't want to know that, son. I advise you not try and find out." and two sarcastic responses.

Oh, and to help with the Thalmor arguments:

...it wasn't his first case--it was his third. The first had been simple enough; he'd planted spurious intelligence in the minister of war's office and waited for it to come out somewhere. When one of their agents in a local Thalmor nest reported it, he easily backtracked the leak to a mid-level official w apparently hemorrhaging information to a mistress who was--as it turned out--a Thalmor sympathizer.

"They are in everything, these days."

There's another part in the book which mentions ~50 Imperial sympathizers/rebels in Valenwood killed, but I can't find it right now.
The latter quote makes me though; if they were in everything back then, how widespread are they now...?

Thank you, I now have evidence to support Drunken's claim and I will believe it. You've done us a great service.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Not that anyone cares but my lack of participation in this thread was caused by a bad migraine that last for what seems to be forever. I'm somewhat recovered so be patient with me.

Can you give me 1 good reason why I should take the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier seriously? That I should become an Ulfric Stormcloak dossier worshiper? I'm sorry but for an organization full of severely narcissistic and self-obsessed elves who thinks their the superior beings, I refuse to take seriously other then the fact that they all need to be liquidated for the betterment of the world.



Hmmm. Well we don't worship the Dossier silly. :)

As far as the Thalmor are concerned, their feelings about superiority run parallel to Nord feelings of honor.

BOTH are justifiable. However, you can't really have an Empire unless everyone can get along and acknowledge a common superiority.

I don't worship the Dossier, I admire it's purity... it follows no delusions... has no respect of person, no fear of what it is or what you and I think about it. It just is what it is... Even though I'm Imperial... now... I must admit the Dossier is an oddity. How many times do you suppose people looked over it, never even noticed it? There's certainly no mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not here to give you all the answers or to force you Raijin into thinking my way. I'm just saying it like it is. Make of it what you will.

I'll say this though, the truth usually points to itself.

Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?

That part is what makes no sense. The dossier also mentions "indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed" Exactly what does that mean? How is the Thalmor indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks? Is their any evidence without voicing an opinion that truly backs this up? Because of all the time that I've spent playing on this game I could not find a lore or a journal that says that the Stormcloaks are indirectly being aided by the Thalmor? I can't accept the Dossier as accurate information considering the fact that theirs nothing that indicates that the Thalmor are financially support the Stormcloaks.

The incident in Helgan is not irreverent.

Elenwen: "General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I'm taking custody of these prisoners."

General Tullius: By the authority of the Imperial Legion you are NOT taking custody of these prisoners.

Elenwen: "Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"

General Tullius: I don't give a fluff what the terms of the White-Gold Concordat says... you ain't taking these prisoners.

Elenwen: "You're making a terrible mistake!"

General Tullius: Go suck on a magical staff and come back to me when you have results.

The only way that I can accept this is if the Empire did a complete 180 in strength and power, and that the Thalmor found out from a legit source that the Empire retook back Hammerfell, and that the Thalmor are getting nervous. Is this why Tullius didn't get the men that he truly desired in Skyrim? Tullius had to heavily depend on locals to deal with the Stormcloak rebellion?

Who knows.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Ulfric murdered Torygg therefore guilty. Ulfric only cares for himself and becoming high king, so i always join the Imperials no matter what. Just love decapitating ulfric. Also the imperial legieon has no choice but to enfore talos worship ban. The elves recked them during the great war and would still do it again. So i get why. Its the only way to hold together the empire.

I wouldn't say "only cares for himself" He quite clearly is serious about Talos Worship, and about Skyrim's independence, however I think the argument you fall flat on is whether or not he murdered the High King. From what we can tell we've got Tulius saying that he shouted him apart, (which from our own point of view is unlikely) and Ulfric saying that he knocked him to the ground and stabbed him, since he's the only one who says this, this is also unlikely. But what we do know is that he challenged him and Torygg accepted. How he killed him is of no matter, but rather it is if he murdered him or killed him in a duel. whether or not its cowardly is up to you.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Not that anyone cares but my lack of participation in this thread was caused by a bad migraine that last for what seems to be forever. I'm somewhat recovered so be patient with me.

Plus, if you think about it, the only people who would normally see the dossier is the Thalmor leadership in Skyrim, so why bother writing a bunch of lies?

Another thing with the Dossier is the words in which it describes the Thalmor's interests in keeping the war going. Why would an Imperial victory be harmful to the thalmor if they are helping them, and why would a stormcloak victory simply be avoided if the stormcloak win would leave have angry with the Thalmor nords in charge?

That part is what makes no sense. The dossier also mentions "indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed" Exactly what does that mean? How is the Thalmor indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks? Is their any evidence without voicing an opinion that truly backs this up? Because of all the time that I've spent playing on this game I could not find a lore or a journal that says that the Stormcloaks are indirectly being aided by the Thalmor? I can't accept the Dossier as accurate information considering the fact that theirs nothing that indicates that the Thalmor are financially support the Stormcloaks.

You do realize that a rebellion is nothing without a cause, right? The Thalmor are indirectly aiding the rebellion by being there to be the cause.

Have you listened to your own buddies in the rebellion?

Why is it worded the way it is? It makes no sense if it is to tell that the way simply needs to keep going. It makes sense if they are afraid of a united empire, which would also explain why they simply want to avoid the rebellion winning, rather than show any fear of them.
 

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