Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

LegateFasendil · Jul 22, 2014

Vatonage said:
LegateFasendil said:

@Mikulas

Normally when you have a piece claiming to present accurate facts that uses language such as "bullpl*ps" or esp "deserves", you can be assured that the author is full of "charged bias" and is not presenting an accurate rep of the facts. My video did that btw with sources, without having to overly express the author's opinion in a novel across the screen. A slide is just that, a slide, not a bunch of thoughts jumbled together.

And F8ck what Ulfric deserves, that's not up to him to decide, that's why Skyrim has a moot.

(Yep IE failed me again, going to try Chrome again)

Click to expand...

Is that a good reason to dismiss all of the points brought forth? Bias can't be avoided, only suppressed.

Wellll that depends on you. You're certainly a very intelligent person, you've proven you are reasonable and receptive to courtesy so I'll certainly respect whatever choice you make.

It's... it's difficult to convey the point on this one. On the one hand, yes, the author may have had some good points and I guess we shouldn't just not listen to their presentation, however, on the other hand, I am experienced enough and have had enough people lie to me (among other things) that I know enough to see where something is going.

I suppose it just depends. The Empire itself is not like that, I think Legate Rikke and Gen Tullius do a pretty good job hearing everyone out and in the end Gen Tully is at some point off to speak to the Emperor about the ban on Talos worship.

So, Imperials in general are very emphatic and reasonable. It's not that I'm necessarily prejudging the author's piece, it's just that the author is making his feelings known from like the first slide... that the Imperials are on his pl*ps list and some thinking "needs to be addressed". That to me, is more than enough to cause concern and to motivate one to immediately call into question the author's motivation(s) as well as the validity of the presentation itself. You know, is it at least based on lore or is the person going to just start chopping off the block and spewing blood and cuts on me?

I've always maintained that the best solution here was for both parties to sit around a kitchen table and try to find a way to live in peace, like New Vegas, where there are numerous diplomatic solutions in the end. I was very hopeful with "Season Unending" that we could all put aside our differences and this could end then, peacefully and everyone return home with dignity. Alas, before the meeting got started it was abundantly clear this was not to be.

Gen Tullius was ready to deal and who knows what could have happened? Maybe Ulfric could have sued for peace, Legate Rikke and the Greybeards would have supported it. From the beginning of the meeting, Ulfric seemed like a caged bear, trying to get away, angry and confused. So... having seen something like this and then we have an online post displaying more of the same behavior... it's like why go back to step one, you know, I already know the score here and again, with me, if... I can't talk to you - just like we're talking now - then why should I be listening to you or allowing you to try and convince me otherwise?

Is that not reasonable? Gen Tullius is pretty reasonable, even when it hurts, even when under pressure to make a decision that's unpopular amongst his allies, that's called leadership. And Titus Mede II displayed this same attribute. That's what leadership is all about. However leadership + bent or broke emotions == chaos.

Vatonage · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
America had the support of France that's it, And France did jack pl***. They ordered a Naval Barricade in the last battle of the War and surrounded the British Navy. That's it. We had less troops, less ammunition and supplies and less training and still beat the all around better British Army that had troops from all over the world. being that you live in Texas I thought you would know something about that but I guess you didn't pay attention in History Class. Also I say we fight defensively not offensively. Did you even read my standpoint?

Really? Lemme just show you this.

(From Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html )

"In the centuries since the Revolutionary War, French contributions have been criminally downplayed. Somewhere between the real Yorktown and Mel Gibson's rather less accurate version, The Patriot, the monumental French war effort during the birth of America was forgotten.

The truth is, the 13 colonies would never have earned their freedom without French intervention -- the whole battle for American independence was essentially a proxy war between Britain and France. To the French, America was nothing but another theater in their grand blood feud against Britain.

France began providing arms and ammunition as early as 1776 (the war started in 1775). In early 1777, months before Saratoga, the French sent American colonists 25,000 uniforms and pairs of boots, hundreds of cannons, and thousands of muskets -- all stuff that the colonists would've had a hard time surviving without, and all stuff they had no access to on their own.

France provided a whopping 90 percent of the rebels' gunpowder. Let that sink in for a second. Without France, the entire American Revolution would have devolved into a bunch of dudes swinging their muskets as clubs within weeks.

Still, the most important French contribution to the revolution (or, if you're British, their ultimate d*** move) was the least visible to Americans. As mentioned, the reason France pampered the Patriots was always selfish. They were out to weaken the British forces -- particularly their naval strength -- in order to take the fight to them, perhaps even conquer them. That's why, for much of the Revolutionary War, the British ships tasked with kicking America's ass had to survive 12 rounds with the French navy before they could even think of crossing the Atlantic. France gleefully fought the British, eventually teaming up with Spain, declaring a war, attacking from all sides, and even setting up an invasion force.

So, when the Colonial army was fighting for dear freedom, history books tend to conveniently forget that they did so with French money, equipment, and backup forces, while France and its other allies were busy pummeling the empire from every other side. "

I know Americans like to be patriotic, but at least some appreciation should be given.

LegateFasendil · Jul 22, 2014

Vatonage said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

America had the support of France that's it, And France did jack pl***. They ordered a Naval Barricade in the last battle of the War and surrounded the British Navy. That's it. We had less troops, less ammunition and supplies and less training and still beat the all around better British Army that had troops from all over the world. being that you live in Texas I thought you would know something about that but I guess you didn't pay attention in History Class. Also I say we fight defensively not offensively. Did you even read my standpoint?

Click to expand...

Really? Lemme just show you this.

(From Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html )

"In the centuries since the Revolutionary War, French contributions have been criminally downplayed. Somewhere between the real Yorktown and Mel Gibson's rather less accurate version, The Patriot, the monumental French war effort during the birth of America was forgotten.

The truth is, the 13 colonies would never have earned their freedom without French intervention -- the whole battle for American independence was essentially a proxy war between Britain and France. To the French, America was nothing but another theater in their grand blood feud against Britain.

France began providing arms and ammunition as early as 1776 (the war started in 1775). In early 1777, months before Saratoga, the French sent American colonists 25,000 uniforms and pairs of boots, hundreds of cannons, and thousands of muskets -- all stuff that the colonists would've had a hard time surviving without, and all stuff they had no access to on their own.

France provided a whopping 90 percent of the rebels' gunpowder. Let that sink in for a second. Without France, the entire American Revolution would have devolved into a bunch of dudes swinging their muskets as clubs within weeks.

Still, the most important French contribution to the revolution (or, if you're British, their ultimate d*** move) was the least visible to Americans. As mentioned, the reason France pampered the Patriots was always selfish. They were out to weaken the British forces -- particularly their naval strength -- in order to take the fight to them, perhaps even conquer them. That's why, for much of the Revolutionary War, the British ships tasked with kicking America's ass had to survive 12 rounds with the French navy before they could even think of crossing the Atlantic. France gleefully fought the British, eventually teaming up with Spain, declaring a war, attacking from all sides, and even setting up an invasion force."

I know Americans like to be patriotic, but at least some appreciation should be given.

Most def. The Franks were a great civilization. I said were. France today is over run with Muslims and their leadership is pretty terrible. So sad considering their history, the Franks under Charlemagne were a great force to be reckoned with. The French are one of the very few civilizations to survive from the days of Attila the Hun and further down the line they did very good in WWI but didn't account for Hitler's craziness in WWII.

Raijin · Jul 22, 2014

Ivory said:
Yeah, since when have mercenaries ever boosted moral right? Things like the Fighters Guild and the Companions are frowned upon and shamed.

Merged with

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
They aren't involved in the War. Ask Any Companion's stance on the War and he/she will tell you they aren't allowed to pick sides. Also it generally isn't good for Moral when you have Mercenaries getting paid more than the soldiers you have trained from boot camp.

Under Stormcloak victory I can see the companions finally taking up a political side considering the fact that the Companions historically dealt with the elves, and achieved great victory by calling Skyrim their homeland; the land of the Nords. I cannot see for a moment that the circle members of the Companions would just lay around while the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor tries taking Skyrim back after the Empire fail a great deal of protecting it. It would be a great dishonor to the great Ysgramor, after he and his 500 companions fought so hard to achieve for them to just ignore the big problem that lays ahead on the horizon.

Oh and if ask why didn't the companions get themselves involved with the great war.... Its rather simple. The Great war didn't happen in Skyrim. It happen in Cryrodiil.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 22, 2014

Vatonage said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

America had the support of France that's it, And France did jack pl***. They ordered a Naval Barricade in the last battle of the War and surrounded the British Navy. That's it. We had less troops, less ammunition and supplies and less training and still beat the all around better British Army that had troops from all over the world. being that you live in Texas I thought you would know something about that but I guess you didn't pay attention in History Class. Also I say we fight defensively not offensively. Did you even read my standpoint?

Click to expand...

Really? Lemme just show you this.

(From Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html )

"In the centuries since the Revolutionary War, French contributions have been criminally downplayed. Somewhere between the real Yorktown and Mel Gibson's rather less accurate version, The Patriot, the monumental French war effort during the birth of America was forgotten.

The truth is, the 13 colonies would never have earned their freedom without French intervention -- the whole battle for American independence was essentially a proxy war between Britain and France. To the French, America was nothing but another theater in their grand blood feud against Britain.

France began providing arms and ammunition as early as 1776 (the war started in 1775). In early 1777, months before Saratoga, the French sent American colonists 25,000 uniforms and pairs of boots, hundreds of cannons, and thousands of muskets -- all stuff that the colonists would've had a hard time surviving without, and all stuff they had no access to on their own.

France provided a whopping 90 percent of the rebels' gunpowder. Let that sink in for a second. Without France, the entire American Revolution would have devolved into a bunch of dudes swinging their muskets as clubs within weeks.

Still, the most important French contribution to the revolution (or, if you're British, their ultimate d*** move) was the least visible to Americans. As mentioned, the reason France pampered the Patriots was always selfish. They were out to weaken the British forces -- particularly their naval strength -- in order to take the fight to them, perhaps even conquer them. That's why, for much of the Revolutionary War, the British ships tasked with kicking America's ass had to survive 12 rounds with the French navy before they could even think of crossing the Atlantic. France gleefully fought the British, eventually teaming up with Spain, declaring a war, attacking from all sides, and even setting up an invasion force.

So, when the Colonial army was fighting for dear freedom, history books tend to conveniently forget that they did so with French money, equipment, and backup forces, while France and its other allies were busy pummeling the empire from every other side. "

I know Americans like to be patriotic, but at least some appreciation should be given.

I was indeed wrong about this.

Vatonage · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
I was indeed wrong about this.

Don't worry about it, many Americans overlook it, I don't blame them if they want to feel patriotic.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 22, 2014

Vatonage said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I was indeed wrong about this.

Click to expand...

Don't worry about it, many Americans overlook it, I don't blame them if they want to feel patriotic.

To be fair our history books didn't say much about the French in the War(at least when I was in High School and Middle School they didn't). My, and many other Americans, mistake.

DrunkenMage · Jul 22, 2014

Raijin said:
Under Stormcloak victory I can see the companions finally taking up a political side considering the fact that the Companions historically dealt with the elves, and achieved great victory by calling Skyrim their homeland;

The Companions had the best weapon and armor enchantments of their time, far superior than what the Elves had. It also wasn't until the 13th of Ysgramor's line that the elves were defeated. There were many Mages back then, the current situation in Skyrim means that Magic is frowned upon.

Without the powerful enchantments or Battlemages, or even numbers since the Companions are few. They're not exactly going to smash the Aldmeri Dominion.

Raijin said:
Oh and if ask why didn't the companions get themselves involved with the great war.... Its rather simple. The Great war didn't happen in Skyrim. It happen in Cryrodiil.

It still isn't going to happen in Skyrim. The Great War's part two will happen around Cyrodiil, Valenwood & Elsweyr.

How are the Aldmeri Dominion taking Skyrim? They're blocked by the Imperial Legion and Skyrim can't be invaded by sea.

DrunkenMage · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Also it generally isn't good for Moral when you have Mercenaries getting paid more than the soldiers you have trained from boot camp.

Mercenaries are on contract, they get paid for the job. Soldiers get paid constantly and they will still have a job during peace time. The Empire has used mercenaries for hundreds of years, there hasn't been issues between them and Legions.

A mercenary may earn more, but they have to keep looking for work.

"In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades" - General Tullius, to his soldiers.

Does that cover morale issues?

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 22, 2014

DrunkenMage said:
Ulfric isn't a 'glorious tongue', he's a novice in comparison to the old Thu'um users.

any tongue is considered the Ultimate testament to what a Nord should be. Hes one of the few in Skyrim who will actually use his voice for what it was originally supposed to be used for so I call him a glorious Tongue.

DrunkenMage said:
So he won't use it in the Great War, but he'll use it several months after the war? Right. Him being young and brash was part of his reason for leaving, he mentions Arngeir calling it one of his many failings. Ulfric was raised in the Greybeards, he went as a boy and obviously was going through teenage and young adult years at the time he was gaining more power.

Giving him more reason to use it after. Hes advancing in Wisdom. Saying "I didn't use the thu'um in the Great War even though It would have saved me from being captured"

DrunkenMage said:
Point being? He gives them a bad view, big deal. Windhelm gives Ulfric a bad view when you walk in the first time. It is all about looking past the surface.

Right. and from in game experiences and talks with Ulfric I can tell you he's not that evil tyrant that the gruff exterior of Windhelm paints him to be. From in game talks and experiences with Olfrid i got this:
Olfrid, patron of the great Clan Battle-Born, a name I'm sure you know well."
Seems like an arrogant, pretentious ass at first Glance. Lets keep talking to him.
If you ask Olfrid why there's a feud with Clan Gray-Mane, he will provide you with his opinion on the one item that has created tensions between the two clans: "Money, you laggard! What else? It always comes down to coin. The Gray-Manes have deep roots in Whiterun, but so do we. Difference is, we're rich, and Vignar hates it. Oh, and they hate it, too. All their big talk of pride and honor, and what have they got to show for it? Beggar's rags and stale bread. We've got the same pride, the same honor, and we've got wealth. No wonder they envy us."
Hmm still seems like a pretentious ass.

DrunkenMage said:
How could they inquire, most thought he was either missing or dead. Idolaf was the only one with Legion contacts.

And you said the whole family was concerned when clearly it was only Idolaf.

DrunkenMage said:
Must I paint a picture? Read the entire page, that information is guess work because the family relationships are unknown due to conflicting information in-game and in the CK.

Read all of something before posting it as solid fact.

I have read it, and it should all be under scrutiny. We don't know what he is. Incestious son? Son in-law.

DrunkenMage said:
Yeah, killing someone tends to be murder. Doing what is needed.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another
It was premeditated, sure, but if it was unlawful than the Imperial Government wouldn't have ordered it.

DrunkenMage said:
Go buy the novels, read for yourself. You're commenting on things you have no idea about.

That's not an answer.

DrunkenMage said:
Actually you did stand zero chance, if it wasn't for the French you'd be singing God Save the Queen.

Not true, actually. The French fought in America about 3 years after the war started. The Only major advantage they gave us was their Naval Support and the fact that they they gave us supplies secretly and so on and so forth but so did Spain and The Netherlands. Beside the fact that the British grossly underestimated us, They also dealt with Guerrilla Warfare in an unfamiliar terrain (gee I wonder why that sounds familiar) while they were using Line Battle Tactics, not to mention that the sheer Geographical Size of the Colonies was way too large for the British to occupy and protect Loyalist from being Tarred and Feathered, and sometimes murdered, by Revolutionaries.

DrunkenMage said:
The Wild Hunt can only happen if the Bosmer conduct a ritual, which they're not proud of. They also have many reasons to hate the Thalmor.

But so far the Thalmor haven't harmed their Forest like The Imperials are about to. Just because they aren't proud of it doesn't mean they won't use it.

DrunkenMage said:
Yeah because the Second Empire also had the Dwemer Golem. Valenwood and Elsweyr aren't impossible to invade.

Not impossible just very, very difficult. Now, Argonia that's practically Impossible to Invade. Tiber Septim wouldn't touch Argonia with a Twelve Mile Pole.

DrunkenMage said:
That was with Raijin going on about sending hundreds of Werewolves to invade and completely tear everyone to pieces.

That wouldn't work and neither is your plan to invade. I don't see any Numidium's on your side.

DrunkenMage said:
The Empire doesn't need to assimilate the Khajiit, just need to push out Aldmeri Dominion forces/governments.

Actually they do. Elsweyr wasn't taken forcefully they willingly joined with the Dominion for
1.) Getting Masser and Secunda back (supposedly)
2.)Queen Ayrenn restored order in Elsweyr after the Nahatten flu

DrunkenMage said:
Yeah, the Nords must be pretty stupid then. They believed that if they didn't retake the Imperial City, they would lose the war.

Tell me, how was it when thousands of men and women on both sides lost their lives because Titus believed it was the only way.

DrunkenMage said:
That was nearly three decades ago. You still think the Imperial legions are under half strength, barely any soldiers fit for duty, thousands of wounded?

It doesn't take 30 years to regain that much strength.

DrunkenMage said:
You've obviously never worn armor for extended periods of time. Neither has many of the Auxiliaries. The weight of gear will begin to feel heavy after hours of walking around. Go bitch to someone in the Military about how easy it is to carry around gear all day after patrols. You're forgetting they also carry a sword, dagger and bow.

I don't hear the farmers and shopkeepers complaining about wielding Two Handed Hammers, Swords, and Axes while wearing their armor walking around all day.

DrunkenMage said:
Yeah, because words will get you far. Last time I checked, the Imperial Legion has many leaders.

It'll definitely help us amass more troops. Who name some. Name some alive Imperial influential leaders.

DrunkenMage said:
Orcs still join the Legions, still loyal to the Empire. Imperials and Bretons make up support? Are you serious? It doesn't matter what race you are, what you do depends on your ability. A Nord soldier is no different to an Imperial or Breton soldier.

The Imperials trained their soldiers accordingly. Bretons would make better Battlemages than the Redguards Imperials and Nords, Whilst Nords and Orcs would make up the better Frontline Soldiers and then you'd have the Redguard Skirmishers

DrunkenMage said:
Actually we have the Legions from High Rock and Skyrim already in Cyrodiil. They're not province loyal.

Anymore. They're not Province Loyal Anymore. They were when they recruited. And they likely wouldn't be in the Imperial Legions

DrunkenMage said:
Actually the Military Dominance came from the mix of Colovian soldiers and Nibenese Battlemages. Added in with the Akaviri influences it became a very effective fighting force, due to tactics, equipment and training.

The different provinces all brought something that has been preserved in the Legion. Even without those provinces, it'll still remain.

Far superior? Race doesn't make you better, in fact an ex Shadow Legionnaire talks about blasting apart Elven soldiers with magic.

Elven Soldiers, not Battlemages. as much as you people wan't to stay "Politically Correct" and how "each race is equal" They really aren't. A Bosmer warrior has to work significantly Harder than a Nord Warrior or Redguard Warrior does because these two races are naturally gifted. Race matters a great deal in the TES games. Every race is better than the other at something. Just Look at the descriptions for each race in game.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/races-tamriel

DrunkenMage said:
Yes, they make perfect spies. Except being unable to respond what they found out.

well you got me there, checkmate.

DrunkenMage said:
That even without Hammerfell, the source of great soldiers is still in the Legions. Hammerfell didn't train the Redguard Legionnaires the Legions did.

A province doesn't produce great soldiers, the Legion produces great soldiers. Military training isn't a genetic trait.

But Warrior prowess is:
Daggerfall Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle.
Battlespire Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been born for battle.
Morrowind Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark-skinned, wiry-haired Redguards of Hammerfell seem born to battle, though their pride and fierce independence of spirit makes them more suitable as scouts or skirmishers, or as free-ranging heroes and adventurers, than as rank-and-file soldiers.
Do you see a pattern that TES games are trying to convey? Sure you trained them to be disciplined, but the rest just came naturally.

DrunkenMage said:
Borgas was an idiot. Also the Thalmor of the Fourth Era are very different to past groups. Many Bosmer have good reasons to fight back against the Thalmor.

Sure. But there are still going to be Bosmer who are loyal to the Dominion as well as Bosmer forced into it.

DrunkenMage said:
Yeah because knowing their after life is part of Military tactics 101. He wasn't being disrespectful, if you look into it, it says 'gracious, but gruff' http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000658ee

And thats a Moderator on UESP's opinion. He was being very disrespectful.

DrunkenMage said:
All Tullius says about the Greybeards and Nords is this:
I'm always surprised by how seriously the Nords take these things.

Which conveys an ignorant tone on the Nordic Culture and Political Agenda

DrunkenMage said:
What reasons? He's a Military General, not a Teacher. History of warfare perhaps, but not Nordic politics.

And Nordic culture. Not to mention Skyrim is part of the Empire he needs to know these things if he's going to be perceived as a friend to Skyrim.

DrunkenMage said:
He knew the main things. Obviously he isn't going to know about a god damn crown that has been missing since the First Era. He also knew he needed help, hence why his second in command is a Nord.

If he can't hope to understand Nordic culture, and History he really shouldn't be the guy in Skyrim, should he?

DrunkenMage said:
That is counting all the soldiers in the war. But what do you expect, of course Red Ring would be a bitch. The Aldmeri were entrenched within the Imperial City.

Weren't you guys entrenched into the city before the Aldmeri got a hold of it?

DrunkenMage said:
Calm down boy. Cyrodiil is the entry point into the other provinces, it also has the White-Gold Tower which has hidden magicks that can unmake Mundas and make it dissolve into Oblivion.

Not necessarily the entry point its just the center and Who's to say the Altmer will destroy the White Gold Tower, after all it was built by their ancestors to preserve the Ten Ancestors

DrunkenMage said:
So you're not going to invade the Aldmeri Dominion? Your entire cause is a lie then.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Not our "entire cause" We wan't the Thalmor out of Skyrim stomping around telling us how to live.

DrunkenMage said:
Titus II was still a better tactician than Ulfric Stormcloak.

Oh you mean the man who led Thousands to their deaths in a manner of 6 days. Please, tell me, How so?

DrunkenMage said:
How do you know there isn't an heir? Mede still has a living Aunt, and there is nothing in-game saying he has no heir. Tullius doesn't even care, he just removes Titus II's name from the oath.

Oh good an Old woman leading the Entire Imperial Army. also theres nothing saying he has one. That would most likely be listed don't you think?

DrunkenMage said:
Or the fact Nord Legions were fighting in Cyrodiil and losing battles for three years?

Under who's command?

DrunkenMage said:
Legions* it wasn't his "Most faithful Legion" Jonna was commanding more than one Legion. Also the it is Cyrodiil's Third Legion which is actually nicknamed 'The Faithful'

My mistake.

DrunkenMage said:
In-game stats doesn't translate over to lore.

Fair enough, Its not as though I'm physically seeing what they did with my own eyes or anything. I'll just read a book telling me the opposite. That seems to be the only way to get credible information

DrunkenMage said:
Diseases are well documented. Besides, what do you think healers are for, or just a simple 'Cure Disease Potion'? We do have alchemists genius.

And yet you still don't tell me how you are supposed to fight off the Hell Beasts that roam the land freely and aren't affiliated with either side.

DrunkenMage said:
Look at Tamriel. Skyrim is between Cyrodiil and High Rock. Remove Skyrim and you cut off Cyrodiil - High Rock.

Then say "cut off from High Rock" instead of "cut in half"

DrunkenMage said:
The Empire isn't fighting for the land, speak to every Legate. It is to do with the citizenry also.

DrunkenMage said:
Not all of them. Some perhaps, but several Legions should manage to get away.

He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Robin.

His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his pen--

"That's... that's enough music for now lads,"

DrunkenMage said:
Because how else will he get an army to the Aldmeri Dominion? He will need to go into Cyrodiil or does he plan to sail to Alinor?

Even I don't think Ulfric is that stupid to sail towards Summerset isle, the Aldmeri Navy will cut them to pieces and being without reinforcements or supplies for months at a time on foreign land is a huge mistake.

But you guys have about the same probability as survival as us.

LegateFasendil · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Vatonage said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I was indeed wrong about this.

Click to expand...

Don't worry about it, many Americans overlook it, I don't blame them if they want to feel patriotic.

Click to expand...

To be fair our history books didn't say much about the French in the War(at least when I was in High School and Middle School they didn't). My, and many other Americans, mistake.

I don't understand why you two 'fellas' are beating yourselves up over this. To be frank... there's quite a bit of history, world history and American history I didn't learn until I got to college. lol I learned more from AOE II and Civ3 about Rome and Greece than in my High School World History Class.

Vatonage · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Not true, actually. The French fought in America about 3 years after the war started. The Only major advantage they gave us was their Naval Support and the fact that they they gave us supplies secretly and so on and so forth but so did Spain and The Netherlands. Beside the fact that the British grossly underestimated us, They also dealt with Guerrilla Warfare in an unfamiliar terrain (gee I wonder why that sounds familiar) while they were using Line Battle Tactics, not to mention that the sheer Geographical Size of the Colonies was way too large for the British to occupy and protect Loyalist from being Tarred and Feathered, and sometimes murdered, by Revolutionaries.

Mikulas, I think you're better off reading that Cracked article before you tackle the Revolutionary War again.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html

Ivory · Jul 22, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Oh excuse me, ONE other family member knew about it, excuse me for being so horribly wrong, tell me who else knew jackass. Did Olfrid Know? what about Bergitte? Alfhild? Lars?

Stop being such a brat. You were wrong. Just get your facts straight and I wouldn't have to correct you. Stop seeing everything as a personal attack.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
It will still be Three Provinces vs Three Provinces regardless of Skyrims political affiliation unless the Empire is just going to sit out the 2nd Great War.

You mean Skyrim? Or do you plan to leave Skyrim in the ruins it is in after the Civil War?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Because you certainly have. Oh No, you two have been completely respectful to me in every way. No hypocracy in this post. "Show some God damn respect to your peers." Alright Judge Judy. Get over yourself.

Sure, I will call you out and laugh at you. But not once have I called you a Retard, Asshole, Pretentious or outright disrespected you as a person. I've mocked your inability to accept you're wrong from time to time and egged you on when you've said such nasty comments. Ex, the picture.

However, Raijin has been here far longer than you, and even when me and him go toe to toe, neither of us outright starts to demean the other in ways you have. Sure, me and Raijin might have gotten heated from time to time, what arguement doesn't? But when you start spouting insults like "Retard"? You're disrespecting not only us, but your entire argument.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
The Empire is hardly alive now. What makes you think they hold any weight in anything.

We've consistently debunked this so I'm not gonna bother.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Go see for yourself friend.

1. Considering even the lowest level Thalmor is a lot more powerful than any farmer in the game, mechanics wise, I'll humor you. Provide some evidence or you're simply talking out your ass.

2. Would an average american citizen who is fit but no war experience stand a chance against a solider of any caliber? Nope.

DrunkenMage · Jul 23, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
any tongue is considered the Ultimate testament to what a Nord should be. Hes one of the few in Skyrim who will actually use his voice for what it was originally supposed to be used for so I call him a glorious Tongue.

He's the only one in Skyrim. He isn't going to live forever, he could very well spend his life time rebuilding Skyrim.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Giving him more reason to use it after. Hes advancing in Wisdom. Saying "I didn't use the thu'um in the Great War even though It would have saved me from being captured"

He's been captured three times. If the Thu'um could save him, make him own all. Why hasn't he done it? He's a pretty plops tongue if he doesn't use the voice when it could be the most handy.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Right. and from in game experiences and talks with Ulfric I can tell you he's not that evil tyrant that the gruff exterior of Windhelm paints him to be. From in game talks and experiences with Olfrid i got this:
Olfrid, patron of the great Clan Battle-Born, a name I'm sure you know well."
Seems like an arrogant, pretentious ass at first Glance. Lets keep talking to him.
If you ask Olfrid why there's a feud with Clan Gray-Mane, he will provide you with his opinion on the one item that has created tensions between the two clans: "Money, you laggard! What else? It always comes down to coin. The Gray-Manes have deep roots in Whiterun, but so do we. Difference is, we're rich, and Vignar hates it. Oh, and they hate it, too. All their big talk of pride and honor, and what have they got to show for it? Beggar's rags and stale bread. We've got the same pride, the same honor, and we've got wealth. No wonder they envy us."
Hmm still seems like a pretentious ass.

Well he is one? Doesn't make everyone related to him or close to him the same. Be like Skald, he's associated with the Stormcloaks, doesn't make every supporter like him.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
And you said the whole family was concerned when clearly it was only Idolaf.

Only Idolaf had the means to find out what happened. They were told to shut up about it, so what should the rest of the family do? They know about the letter, and they maintain he was killed in battle.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
I have read it, and it should all be under scrutiny. We don't know what he is. Incestious son? Son in-law.

It doesn't matter, he's still very close to the Battle-Borns and is the main Imperial supporter.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
It was premeditated, sure, but if it was unlawful than the Imperial Government wouldn't have ordered it.

You can't be open about it, say there is an Thalmor Agent. You have to kill him, but you can't expose yourself as being an Imperial Agent, so you need to kill him in secret. Are you going to walk into the local barracks and go "Hey, I'm going to stab this guy six times. But don't worry, he's a Thalmor."

Or do you just go kill him, make it look like a mugging or maybe he goes missing. The Thalmor know, but they don't know. Could he have been assassinated or some other fate?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
That's not an answer.

Well I don't have the novels on me. If you want the reasons the book gives, that entire conversation. Either buy the books or ask Rimfaxe.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Not true, actually. The French fought in America about 3 years after the war started. The Only major advantage they gave us was their Naval Support and the fact that they they gave us supplies secretly and so on and so forth but so did Spain and The Netherlands. Beside the fact that the British grossly underestimated us, They also dealt with Guerrilla Warfare in an unfamiliar terrain (gee I wonder why that sounds familiar) while they were using Line Battle Tactics, not to mention that the sheer Geographical Size of the Colonies was way too large for the British to occupy and protect Loyalist from being Tarred and Feathered, and sometimes murdered, by Revolutionaries.

It doesn't matter, I don't really care or know much about the American Revolution. But I do know, it hasn't got much to do with this topic. There have been many Americans bashing other Americans for bringing up the Revolution when debating for the Stormcloaks.

I don't know why it would sound familiar, it's you Stormcloaks who keep getting ambushed.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
But so far the Thalmor haven't harmed their Forest like The Imperials are about to. Just because they aren't proud of it doesn't mean they won't use it.

Of course they do. The Aldmeri Dominion has to build inside Valenwood.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Not impossible just very, very difficult. Now, Argonia that's practically Impossible to Invade. Tiber Septim wouldn't touch Argonia with a Twelve Mile Pole.

Why would we invade Black Marsh? They're not sided with the Aldmeri Dominion, and they're not impossible to invade. Tiber didn't need to invade Black Marsh, but Legions have fought there I believe. They use a special armor that was designed by an Argonian black smith.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
That wouldn't work and neither is your plan to invade. I don't see any Numidium's on your side.

I don't see any on your side. Why do the Stormcloaks stand a better chance at invading the Aldmeri Dominion?

Numidium was used to defeat Summerset Isle. The Empire does have a fairly good chance, the Thalmor are at war with the Psijic Order. Wouldn't be the first time Psijic's conjured up a storm to destroy an enemy fleet.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Actually they do. Elsweyr wasn't taken forcefully they willingly joined with the Dominion for
1.) Getting Masser and Secunda back (supposedly)

There are Khajiit who consider them saviors. But we'll send in the Third Legion, I'm sure they haven't forgot them. Just install a Military Governor for awhile, there are Khajiit who oppose the Thalmor.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
2.)Queen Ayrenn restored order in Elsweyr after the Nahatten flu

Wtf does she have to do with anything?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Tell me, how was it when thousands of men and women on both sides lost their lives because Titus believed it was the only way.

Pretty good, we kept the Thalmor General hanging off the White-Gold Towert, alive for thirty three days.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
It doesn't take 30 years to regain that much strength.

There were other things to sort out, loss of law and order. Violence and criminal elements taking advantage. Turns out bandits, pirates, evil wizards etc. Don't really care about others, and decided to be selfish and cause problems.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
I don't hear the farmers and shopkeepers complaining about wielding Two Handed Hammers, Swords, and Axes while wearing their armor walking around all day.

It doesn't matter though. It is just conversations, be annoying if both sides kept saying the exact same things as the other.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
It'll definitely help us amass more troops. Who name some. Name some alive Imperial influential leaders.

I can't, we don't know everything in Cyrodiil. But the Imperial Legion has several Generals, given by Tullius' statement in Season Unending that he can't accept the terms or he'd be recalled and replaced.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
The Imperials trained their soldiers accordingly. Bretons would make better Battlemages than the Redguards Imperials and Nords, Whilst Nords and Orcs would make up the better Frontline Soldiers and then you'd have the Redguard Skirmishers

Really? How do you work all this out? Why would a Breton be a better Battlemage? Game play wise, yeah. Lore wise? Can you give me loads of Breton Battlemages? Where does it say Imperials train accordingly, based on race?

Are all Nords two handed beserkers and light infantry?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Anymore. They're not Province Loyal Anymore. They were when they recruited. And they likely wouldn't be in the Imperial Legions

Those in the Legions fight for the Empire. Who likely wouldn't be in the Imperial Legions? Those that headed south to the Dominion's border?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Elven Soldiers, not Battlemages. as much as you people wan't to stay "Politically Correct" and how "each race is equal" They really aren't. A Bosmer warrior has to work significantly Harder than a Nord Warrior or Redguard Warrior does because these two races are naturally gifted. Race matters a great deal in the TES games. Every race is better than the other at something. Just Look at the descriptions for each race in game.

There were Battlemages with the soldiers, or did they just vanish every timethe Imperial Legions fought the Aldmeri? If they were so superior, why is the Empire still standing?

Game play stats isn't lore. Bosmer are credited as being the best archers, why? Because so many of them used archery. Does that mean a Bosmer baby is an expert archer? No.

Bretons in game look to be better Battlemages. Yet lore wise, Imperials have had more Battlemages.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
But Warrior prowess is:
Daggerfall Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle.
Battlespire Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been born for battle.
Morrowind Description
The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark-skinned, wiry-haired Redguards of Hammerfell seem born to battle, though their pride and fierce independence of spirit makes them more suitable as scouts or skirmishers, or as free-ranging heroes and adventurers, than as rank-and-file soldiers.
Do you see a pattern that TES games are trying to convey? Sure you trained them to be disciplined, but the rest just came naturally.

Part of their culture. Redguard society is extremely martial, and nearly everyone is expected to have a grasp of basic weaponry and combat, although only the rulers are generally expected to have any knowledge of strategy, formations and tactics.

They are a highly disciplined and enterprising people, having centuries of experience with warfare in their homeland. Their warriors are acknowledged to be among the best in the world. The Redguards are also known for their naval prowess, and their fleets have proved a match for the Empire's best armadas, as seen during the Stros M'Kai revolt. Stros M'Kai and some parts of mainland Hammerfell hold many Dwemer ruins, and some young Redguards seeking to enter military service must brave the dangers of these ruins. Most of their holidays and traditions seem to revolve around either the celebration of natural phenomena or the commemoration of great battles and warriors.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguard#Society_and_Religion

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Sure. But there are still going to be Bosmer who are loyal to the Dominion as well as Bosmer forced into it.

Naturally. But the Wild Hunt is dangerous to both sides. It isn't something used lightly, because it'll kill Bosmer, Imperial or Altmer alike.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
And thats a Moderator on UESP's opinion. He was being very disrespectful.

A UESP Moderator's opinion? Seriously?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Which conveys an ignorant tone on the Nordic Culture and Political Agenda

So what? He is a General who was sent there. He isn't there to learn Nordic culture, but to put down a rebellion and ensure the Moot meets.

The Greybeards have never involved themselves in politics. So yeah, maybe he is a little ignorant on what they want with him.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
And Nordic culture. Not to mention Skyrim is part of the Empire he needs to know these things if he's going to be perceived as a friend to Skyrim.

He isn't looking to make friends. He's doing a job. He isn't there forever.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
If he can't hope to understand Nordic culture, and History he really shouldn't be the guy in Skyrim, should he?

Why? He's good at his job, he's dealing with a rebellion.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Weren't you guys entrenched into the city before the Aldmeri got a hold of it?

Not with an entire main army.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Not necessarily the entry point its just the center and Who's to say the Altmer will destroy the White Gold Tower, after all it was built by their ancestors to preserve the Ten Ancestors

Because they believe they are descended from Gods and that Mundas is their prison. I'm not saying they will, but it is hinted at. Esbern mentions they want to probably end the world on their terms and the Thalmor during the Mages quest goes on about the power to unmake the world.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Not our "entire cause" We wan't the Thalmor out of Skyrim stomping around telling us how to live.

It is what the Stormcloaks plan to do. Take their army to the Aldmeri Dominion. Galmar and Ulfric both mention it.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Oh you mean the man who led Thousands to their deaths in a manner of 6 days. Please, tell me, How so?

Did you expect people not to die in a war? Um, maybe the fact Titus II didn't get captured within several weeks.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Oh good an Old woman leading the Entire Imperial Army. also theres nothing saying he has one. That would most likely be listed don't you think?

Emperors don't always lead the Imperial army. We don't know if he doesn't or does have an heir, but Skyrim doesn't advance in time. Everything goes on within 201. It won't always be listed the next heir. If the Mede Dynasty had just ended, blood line gone. Isn't that something that would be mentioned?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Under who's command?

I don't know, Nord Legates? Ulfric was captured before the Imperial City fell, well before General Jonna arrived.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
And yet you still don't tell me how you are supposed to fight off the Hell Beasts that roam the land freely and aren't affiliated with either side.

The same way they did when the Imperial Legion had garrisons within Valenwood.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
But you guys have about the same probability as survival as us.

The Empire isn't sailing from Skyrim, that would be suicide.

Not really, technically we have a better chance. Since neither side wins the Civil War, the Empire still exists with or without Tullius and Skyrim.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 23, 2014

Vatonage said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Not true, actually. The French fought in America about 3 years after the war started. The Only major advantage they gave us was their Naval Support and the fact that they they gave us supplies secretly and so on and so forth but so did Spain and The Netherlands. Beside the fact that the British grossly underestimated us, They also dealt with Guerrilla Warfare in an unfamiliar terrain (gee I wonder why that sounds familiar) while they were using Line Battle Tactics, not to mention that the sheer Geographical Size of the Colonies was way too large for the British to occupy and protect Loyalist from being Tarred and Feathered, and sometimes murdered, by Revolutionaries.

Click to expand...

Mikulas, I think you're better off reading that Cracked article before you tackle the Revolutionary War again.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html

Your right I resign.

LtKaiden · Jul 23, 2014

Personally, I stayed neutral, Imperials are cowards, Stormcloaks are good people but I kinda like the empire

Raijin · Jul 23, 2014

LegateFasendil said:
Oh yeah? Well that's excellent. What was your favorite part?

I personally couldn't stop laughing for several minutes when they cut to Ulfric. It's like... yeah and the Thalmor are using this fl*ffing guy right here... and... hehehe... and he's just sitting there with his hair braided looking up like... "Nuh-uh, stop picking on me guys". LMAO

My favorite part from the video was the Thalmor dossier asset of Ulfric Stormcloak. I knew that was going to be brought up... I just knew it. It was only matter of time before it was brought up. You Imperials love to theorize about it endlessly.http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak
Click here to view Imperial supporters exotic porn featuring the naughty Elf and the beefy Nord. 18 years old and up. No immaturity allowed.

LegateFasendil · Jul 23, 2014

Raijin said:
LegateFasendil said:

Oh yeah? Well that's excellent. What was your favorite part?

I personally couldn't stop laughing for several minutes when they cut to Ulfric. It's like... yeah and the Thalmor are using this fl*ffing guy right here... and... hehehe... and he's just sitting there with his hair braided looking up like... "Nuh-uh, stop picking on me guys". LMAO

Click to expand...

My favorite part from the video was the Thalmor dossier asset of Ulfric Stormcloak. I knew that was going to be brought up... I just knew it. It was only matter of time before it was brought up. You Imperials love to theorize about it endlessly.
Click here to view Imperial supporters exotic porn featuring the naughty Elf and the beefy Nord. 18 years old and up. No immaturity allowed.

Better yet... can you give us a reason as to why it shouldn't be brought up? I mean, written by the Thalmor intel community, it's all factual, Thalmor have no reason to lie in there. It's solid, full-proof contradiction to Ulfric and his cause.

It's like... having your beer and drinking it too OR paying for Gold at the price of Silver.

It's like... you're supposed to be at work @ 8:00am and you say na @#$% that, I'll be in around noon and still get paid for starting @ 8:00am.

It's like... when one of those self-righteous Stormies starts preaching hate about Talos and how bad the Empire is and I walks by in Imp uniform and just put my hand over his mouth in mid sentence and be like, "relax, it's all good, have some faith man" and the dude is totally like... "ok, my bad."

That's how good that Dossier is.

It's really quite damming. Now, most Imperials or the token Imp sympathizer will be able to do sufficient damage just by bringing it up. The truth however, is hidden in the details of the document and is far more damaging to Ulfric and his ilk.

If it were Fallout 3, it would be the difference between pulling an Assault Rifle on someone vs pulling a Good Plasma Rifle on same person or thing.

There's seriously ALOT of good stuff in there.

Raijin · Jul 23, 2014

LegateFasendil said:
Better yet... can you give us a reason as to why it shouldn't be brought up? I mean, written by the Thalmor intel community, it's all factual, Thalmor have no reason to lie in there. It's solid, full-proof contradiction to Ulfric and his cause.

It's like... having your beer and drinking it too OR paying for Gold at the price of Silver.

It's like... you're supposed to be at work @ 8:00am and you say na @#$% that, I'll be in around noon and still get paid for starting @ 8:00am.

It's like... when one of those self-righteous Stormies starts preaching hate about Talos and how bad the Empire is and I walks by in Imp uniform and just put my hand over his mouth in mid sentence and be like, "relax, it's all good, have some faith man" and the dude is totally like... "ok, my bad."

That's how good that Dossier is.

It's really quite damming. Now, most Imperials or the token Imp sympathizer will be able to do sufficient damage just by bringing it up. The truth however, is hidden in the details of the document and is far more damaging to Ulfric and his ilk.

If it were Fallout 3, it would be the difference between pulling an Assault Rifle on someone vs pulling a Good Plasma Rifle on same person or thing.

There's seriously ALOT of good stuff in there.

Can you give me 1 good reason why I should take the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier seriously? That I should become an Ulfric Stormcloak dossier worshiper? I'm sorry but for an organization full of severely narcissistic and self-obsessed elves who thinks their the superior beings, I refuse to take seriously other then the fact that they all need to be liquidated for the betterment of the world.

Jeremius · Jul 23, 2014

Raijin said:
LegateFasendil said:

Better yet... can you give us a reason as to why it shouldn't be brought up? I mean, written by the Thalmor intel community, it's all factual, Thalmor have no reason to lie in there. It's solid, full-proof contradiction to Ulfric and his cause.

It's like... having your beer and drinking it too OR paying for Gold at the price of Silver.

It's like... you're supposed to be at work @ 8:00am and you say na @#$% that, I'll be in around noon and still get paid for starting @ 8:00am.

It's like... when one of those self-righteous Stormies starts preaching hate about Talos and how bad the Empire is and I walks by in Imp uniform and just put my hand over his mouth in mid sentence and be like, "relax, it's all good, have some faith man" and the dude is totally like... "ok, my bad."

That's how good that Dossier is.

It's really quite damming. Now, most Imperials or the token Imp sympathizer will be able to do sufficient damage just by bringing it up. The truth however, is hidden in the details of the document and is far more damaging to Ulfric and his ilk.

If it were Fallout 3, it would be the difference between pulling an Assault Rifle on someone vs pulling a Good Plasma Rifle on same person or thing.

There's seriously ALOT of good stuff in there.

Click to expand...

Can you give me 1 good reason why I should take the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier seriously? That I should become an Ulfric Stormcloak dossier worshiper? I'm sorry but for an organization full of severely narcissistic and self-obsessed elves who thinks their the superior beings, I refuse to take seriously other then the fact that they all need to be liquidated for the betterment of the world.

I will give you a perfect reason. IT is in a chest in the embassy. I doubt they would write that up with a bunch of lies just because, they would be the only ones reading it.

(The bold, Italics, Underlined is the reason).

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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