Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And what are those times of "True Need"? hmm? do you know? I certainly don't? They're very vague about it. Chances are Ulfric being a young soldier didn't know and likely didn't use it, hoping he could still maintain the Way of the Voice. Even now, Ulfric claims the Way of the Voice is " a Wonderful Philosophy"

Alright fine, you want to believe Ulfric didn't use the Thu'um. It was why he was captured. Well the Thalmor won't capture Ulfric next round, be easier to just kill him. Since Thu'um users can be killed, just as easily as those without the Thu'um.

Ulfric being young would mean he would be more willing to use the Thu'um. It is only when he has aged he has come to understand it should not be used lightly.

Exactly, so why are you still defending that. The Father is poking fun at a concerned, paranoid old woman worried about her son. Pretty dickish and irresponsible of him considering he represents the head of the Family

Because, the father doesn't represent everyone's feelings. Does Vignar represent the Gray-Manes when he says the Companions aren't worthy to join?

Yeah, it does. how can we have feasible evidence that they care at all. Jon doesn't mention it, Alfhild doesn't and obviously Lars doesn't. Also upon reading up on the Battle Born's Idolaf isn't actually a direct descendant, but rather an in-law. This could mean Idolaf doesn't hold the exact same pride for his family that the rest of the Battle-Borns do. That info comes from here:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Battle-Born

The family doesn't care, they decided to tell the Gray-Manes he died in battle, because they didn't care. They didn't care enough to tell them he was being tortured and he's all alone screaming for his mother, in some dark cell.

Idolaf is the main one who holds to the "pride of Battle-Born". He's very close to the Clan leader, and hates the Gray-Mane's other son.

I like the fact your source of information also states:
Olfrid refers to Idolaf as his son and the creation kit marks him as such, even though Idolaf is married to Olfrid's daughter. Idolaf is also marked as Jon's father, even though all dialogue indicates that Jon is either his brother-in-law or his brother.

And thats their problem. They will do whatever it takes to keep their Emperor's seat

They do whatever it takes to protect the Empire.

Fixed that for you

Of course you did.

Obviously they do since Colins task involved: "Their recruitment process is oftentimes a brutal one, as displayed by Inspector Colin's task to assassinate an old man. The purpose of such recruitment process was to weed out those unwilling to actually go through with murder and other usually immoral tasks."

The part of "Penitus Oculatus aren't just spies" went right above your head? There are many spies who work for the Empire, they're not all killers. The Penitus Oculatus deal with counter espionage, and assassinations.

Doesn't make it right

Killing the enemy? You keep believing the Old man is innocent, like they just selected some random harmless fellow for him to kill. If you can prove to me without a doubt he's innocent, then I'll agree it isn't right.

If you're going to bring real life events into an argument about fictitious events than I have something for you later on in my post.

This happens in espionage, be it fiction or real life. Not my fault you fail to see that.

and this proves what? That they can't kill that they can't pickup a weapon? that they can't win in a fight against Imperials. Game Data says otherwise.

What? The Aldmeri Dominion's soldiers can match the trained Legions. The Stormcloaks are fighting a Militia, Auxiliary Legions. This is telling you, at the moment the Stormcloaks stand zero chance against the armies of the Dominion until they're properly trained.

Well there you go, not only will the Stormcloaks be fighting but so will the Empire. so what are you worrying about exactly? Also may I suggest rethinking your strategy about openly attacking Valenwood and Elsweyr, That could be a HUGE problem for an already weak Empire. or did you forget about the Wild Hunt and the Giant Tiger mounts that you said would be a big problem for us?

The Stormcloaks have to train their armies, rebuild their country to be self sufficient.

Why would it be a problem? How the hell do you think Empire's in Tamriel were forged? Did they just start out very powerful? No.

The Empire has in the past attacked Valenwood and Elsweyr. The Empire is weak, so is the Aldmeri Dominion. I didn't forget about the Wind Hunt, that tends to happen when you start destroying the plant life.It also requires the Bosmer conduct a ritual, and after their ethnic cleansing and racial pruges from the Thalmor... They're not exactly going to rush to save them.

I was joking about the Tiger mounts being a problem, the Empire has fought the Khajiit before.

And barely scraped away with their lives

Yeah, it was a close call. We had like five people left.

Did you mean get two legions completely decimated in the last battle of the War due to shoddy tactics. Because that's what I heard happened.

The Legions destroyed was during the war. Not just Red Ring, and shoddy tactics? Are you serious? Titus II's tactics is what made them win. In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come

And two legions got completely destroyed! remember!? its all in this book you Imperial Boot Lickers claim to love so much:

Yeah two Legions. Real shame there's Nine Auxiliary Legions in Skyrim at the end of the Civil War, and probably 10-18 standard Legions in Cyrodiil.

The Empire also has thousands of Mercenaries under their employ.

While the Stormcloaks are ready and motivated to fight the Dominion while Imperial Auxiliaries complain about their armor being too heavy.

You're ready to fight the Dominion? Good luck on that.

The Imperial Auxiliaries aren't the main fighting force, if you're going to bring up them going on about their armor. Let's bring up the Stormcloaks are too busy bitching about not wanting to eat rabbit.

Aw, poor Stormcloaks. Military life too hard for you, don't like them long campaigns of eating rations.

And thats one of the advantages an Independent Skyrim has over the Empire. they won't have to worry about their Military being spread across four or three different provinces. They'll have A Unified Peoples Rebublic all defending one Fortified land separated by Snow and Mountains.

Unified Peoples Republic? Ulfric isn't making a democracy, and he only does what he wants. We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear? - Ulfric Stormcloak

Even If you win this Civil War you will still have that problem of your Military being spread across three provinces and still being weak.

How? The Imperial army is gathered in Cyrodiil, the forces in Skyrim are locally recruited. Still stronger than the Stormcloaks, all you have is a few old Legionnaires and basic trained militia.

Empire has basic trained Militia, thousands of trained soldiers and thousands of mercenaries. Even without Skyrim or High Rock, Cyrodiil will still be stronger than the Stormcloaks.

And yet, they produced some of the greatest Warriors for The Imperial Legions. Show some respect where its due, hmm?

There are still Redguards in the Legions.

Prepared To Invade Valenwood, which as you said, is obviously Not a good Idea. Can you say: "Wild Hunt?". Wouldn't it be a better Idea to use some of that Espionage as you wholeheartedly believe the Imperials do, and assassinate The Head Thalmor agents in Valenwood, rather than rushing a couple of Legions into certain Death. Do they not remember what happened to King Borgas and his Armies? Oh of course they don't, That would require extensive research into another culture's history. Something The Empire clearly doesn't practice *cough * *cough* General Tulius *cough*

Funny how it was the Empire who wrote that history, where the knowledge of that event can be found. The Empire does fund research into the history of other cultures, so your comment doesn't make sense

General Tullius understood that the Moot elected the King. He didn't understand the issue with the crown, and Tullius was sent to Skyrim at a whim.

If you're sent to a country tomorrow, are you going to be an expert of thousandyears of tradition mixed with politics and be 100% versed in it without help in only several weeks?

I'd love to see you pull that off.

You mean the same Empire that
1.) Pissed off two of its four remaining provinces after the Great War

Yeah, Hammerfell devastated itself with their five year war against the Thalmor. Skyrim is fighting itself, making themselves weaker on the brink of war with the Thalmor.

2.) Lost two Legions in the Battle of the Red Ring and the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City

Lost two legions over four years of fighting. Actually no, better we only lost them in Red Ring, since we obviously kicked the ass out of the Thalmor to only lose men in a single battle.

3.) Is preparing to invade Valenwood and Elsweyr, and fight in a full fledged offensive war.
Yeah you guys are screwed.

Better hope not, if Cyrodiil falls. So does all of Tamriel.

And thats all you have Hope, What do the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim have:
Grit, Determination, Rage, Guerrilla Tactics, And arguably one of the most influential, and bad ass Leaders since Faolan and Tiber Septim leading their armies. One who speaks the Dragon Tongue
and isn't afraid to use it.

Yeah, guerrilla tactics will be awesome when you invade the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric leading your armies? Hahahaha, I'd give you three weeks before the Aldmeri surround you, and slaughter you.

The Empire has: Thousands of soldiers and thousands of mercenaries. Some of the best training in Tamriel, and espionage agents, Imperial Rangers, The Shadow Legion etc.

Alright:
1.) The Stormcloaks don't need training to fight Elves, maybe agile Khajiit and giant Bosmer Monsters but not Elves. Its practically in their blood.

So when thousands of Nords died, with good training. That was what? One time thing?

Yeah, by all means send farmers against highly trained soldiers/Battlemages.

2.) They'll have to unite Skyrim not rebuild it, The land war didn't completely destroy the land but rather separated it.

So Ulfric is lying when he says they're going to rebuild skyrim? after all they've depended on the Empire for things for an Era. You need to rebuild your entire economy into being self sufficient.

3.) An offensive war is much, MUCH harder to fight than a defensive one. You don't know the terrain, you have to get used to your environment, and not to mention the new debilitating diseases that can be transmitted onto your soldiers, especially since you're going to be fighting in a Jungle Environment. Ever heard of the Vietnam War. How did that turn out for the U.S. Soldiers?

Who do you think mapped those areas? The Legions have all fought in those locations, and it is all part of their training. The Imperial Legion has being fighting offensive wars for thousand years. Khajiit military tactics, documented by the Legion. Bosmer fighting tactics, documented by the Legion.

The Imperial Legion isn't going to march blindly around. They have scouts, they have rangers, they've had spies in those provinces. What new diseases? The Legions have been in these areas before, they have healers.

4.) The Stormcloaks didn't "cut the empire in half" when they won the war. Skyrim was only good to the Empire in 2 ways:
Resources and Fighters

Look at a map of Tamriel. Can you play spot Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock?

Now they can't get the Silver from the Reach, but like you said they don't need it, and they can't get Nords directly from Skyrim anymore as they'll be most likely ready to fight off the Dominion in a defensive war, (However that's not to say that their won't be able bodied Nords unwilling to fight for the Empire) And you still have The Orcs of Orsinium and of various Strongholds
5.) Trust me, the Stormcloaks wont miss it.

Stormcloaks aren't fighting a defensive war, Ulfric plans to take his entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion. So Rikke calls him a fool.

I don't doubt the Stormcloaks wouldn't miss the war, I doubt Ulfric's tactics. If he's taking his entire army through Pale Pass, they may all get killed.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Sayma begs to differ: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."

He gave speeches about the Empire, he was a King in the Empire. This was during times of tension, do you expect him to give speeches about the finer points of making apple cabbage stew?

which means what? That he kisses their ass only when hes near War.

Which means he cared about keeping stability.

Apparently he did have time because he said No on the whole Independence thing. Also this should mean Ulfric asked him about it and he wholeheartedly said "No"

"If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it."

"Ulfric showed up at the gates of Solitude requesting an audience. We thought he was here to ask Torygg to declare independence. By the time we realized Ulfric was here to challenge Torygg... it was already too late."

Where did Ulfric ask him and where did Torygg say no? Show me the source that says "Torygg turned Ulfric down" or "Torygg told Ulfric no"

Is that why they're fighting in a Civil War, because they didn't care about Skyrim. Could have sworn that would mean the opposite. Oh well guess I'm wrong.

The Empire does care about Skyrim, but they have other issues to deal with. The Legion stepped in when Ulfric killed Torygg, there was some violence and skirmishes between the Holds before that. It was Ulfric who forced their hand, if they don't step in when someone openly kills the King and starts a rebellion. It could cause others to react, Warlords deciding they can do what they want.

Ulfric killed someone who represented the Empire, a symbol. Can cause a domino effect if it was left alone.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I really have a problem with Raijin about this one. Sayma is a shop keeper, and not a completely credible source on all things Torygg. It is likely that she is a stormcloak sympathizer or that she simply has not spent a long enough time with Torygg to have any knowledge of his mental workings.

You can't prove that Sayma is a Stormcloak sympathizer. Can you prove to me that this is indeed true? That shes in fact a Stormcloak sympathizer? Did you find a Stormcloak flag in her store? What about armor?

She said nothing that clearly indicated that she favored the Stormcloaks.
 

W'rkncacnter

Mister Freeze
3.) An offensive war is much, MUCH harder to fight than a defensive one. You don't know the terrain, you have to get used to your environment, and not to mention the new debilitating diseases that can be transmitted onto your soldiers, especially since you're going to be fighting in a Jungle Environment. Ever heard of the Vietnam War. How did that turn out for the U.S. Soldiers?
This is a rather dubious claim at best. In the best of circumstances (for the defending army) it is true, but how often is it the best of circumstances?

Determination of ease of victory is far more than a simple evaluation of defender vs. attacker.

The disaster in Vietnam was more the politics involved than 'home turf'. Politicians set the rules of war from back home leaving their soldiers with their hands tied. Ultimately, it was China who the US was fighting (via supplies, equipment, and possibly some troops) but due to the political climate the US was unable to retaliate against China directly (since everyone gets squeamish about mutually assured destruction and all that). The NVA didn't succeed because they were the defending country (technically, they were the invading army - invading the South), they succeeded due to a whole host of issues.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I really have a problem with Raijin about this one. Sayma is a shop keeper, and not a completely credible source on all things Torygg. It is likely that she is a stormcloak sympathizer or that she simply has not spent a long enough time with Torygg to have any knowledge of his mental workings.

You can't prove that Sayma is a Stormcloak sympathizer. Can you prove to me that this is indeed true? That shes in fact a Stormcloak sympathizer? Did you find a Stormcloak flag in her store? What about armor?

She said nothing that clearly indicated that she favored the Stormcloaks.

I am not saying she is indeed a stormcloak, Just that she has absolutely does not have any knowledge of Torygg personally on any matter and thus does not have any authority to be a Torygg expert. The stormcloak thing is little more than a comparison.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
He didn't kiss their ass,
Sayma begs to differ: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."

I really have a problem with Raijin about this one. Sayma is a shop keeper, and not a completely credible source on all things Torygg. It is likely that she is a stormcloak sympathizer or that she simply has not spent a long enough time with Torygg to have any knowledge of his mental workings.

I doubt she'd be in Solitude for very long if she was. Although it is possible however it could be said that Sybille could possibly have a biased view since she is a motherly figure to him.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
He gave speeches about the Empire, he was a King in the Empire. This was during times of tension, do you expect him to give speeches about the finer points of making apple cabbage stew?
Seyma seems to think he was kissing their ass, and, given that she's a citizen in Solitude that means something. We already know he sided with the Empire why wouldn't he try and support them.

Which means he cared about keeping stability.
Or he cared about keeping his seat.

Where did Ulfric ask him and where did Torygg say no? Show me the source that says "Torygg turned Ulfric down" or "Torygg told Ulfric no"
If you ask her why Torygg didn't declare Skyrim's independence she will sum up the relationship of Skyrim and the Empire by stating, "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."
Granted it doesn't necessarily say he said "no" to Ulfric but it does say he said "No" to declaring Skyrims Independence. And since Ulfric was the only person directly asking Torygg, well, that would mean he said no to Ulfric.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Sayma begs to differ: "And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that.."

I really have a problem with Raijin about this one. Sayma is a shop keeper, and not a completely credible source on all things Torygg. It is likely that she is a stormcloak sympathizer or that she simply has not spent a long enough time with Torygg to have any knowledge of his mental workings.

I doubt she'd be in Solitude for very long if she was. Although it is possible however it could be said that Sybille could possibly have a biased view since she is a motherly figure to him.

True, but She would have the most accurate information on him, and be a proper source on all things Torygg. A shop keeper would not have accurate information whether or not she is a Stormcloaks supporter.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Alright fine, you want to believe Ulfric didn't use the Thu'um. It was why he was captured. Well the Thalmor won't capture Ulfric next round, be easier to just kill him. Since Thu'um users can be killed, just as easily as those without the Thu'um.
Fine, that is true they can be killed. but tell me were there any accounts of glorious Tongue's being caught and tortured by Elves or just accounts of them being hit by arrows?

Ulfric being young would mean he would be more willing to use the Thu'um. It is only when he has aged he has come to understand it should not be used lightly.
Seeing as though he was raised to believe that using the Thu'um in any other way than worship of Kyne is strictly forbidden I doubt he, being young and gullible, would. And before you ask here:
"Although I rarely use my training the Greybeards believe shouts should only be for the worship of Kynareth."
"I doubt Arngeir has forgiven me. And for well, what he would call Blasphemy, using the voice for anything other than the worship of Kynareth."
Both of these quotes are by Ulfric when you ask him about The Greybeards

Because, the father doesn't represent everyone's feelings. Does Vignar represent the Gray-Manes when he says the Companions aren't worthy to join?
I'm saying he immediately gives us a bad view of the family because he is the head of the Family. Vignar saying you can't join the Companions doesn't concern me because,
1.) He doesn't speak for the entirety of the Companions and half of the Companions say I can't anyway, so its pretty harmless
2.) It's not nearly as bad as saying "Your Stupid son died a Stormcloak Traitor!"

The family doesn't care, they decided to tell the Gray-Manes he died in battle, because they didn't care. They didn't care enough to tell them he was being tortured and he's all alone screaming for his mother, in some dark cell.
Idolaf was the only one who knew about the letter to Tulius. Nobody else inquired about anything.

Idolaf is the main one who holds to the "pride of Battle-Born". He's very close to the Clan leader, and hates the Gray-Mane's other son.

I like the fact your source of information also states:
Olfrid refers to Idolaf as his son and the creation kit marks him as such, even though Idolaf is married to Olfrid's daughter. Idolaf is also marked as Jon's father, even though all dialogue indicates that Jon is either his brother-in-law or his brother.
Did you not see the chart? must I paint a picture?
The Family Tree of the Battle-Borns is as follows:

That means Idolaf is not the son. Or that they practice incest. I hope its the former although I suppose that would explain a lot.

They do whatever it takes to protect the Empire.
Tomato, Tomato

Of course you did.
;)

The part of "Penitus Oculatus aren't just spies" went right above your head? There are many spies who work for the Empire, they're not all killers. The Penitus Oculatus deal with counter espionage, and assassinations.
And murder and other immoral acts as they clearly put it.

Killing the enemy? You keep believing the Old man is innocent, like they just selected some random harmless fellow for him to kill. If you can prove to me without a doubt he's innocent, then I'll agree it isn't right.
And where does it say he was a Thalmor agent?

This happens in espionage, be it fiction or real life. Not my fault you fail to see that.
And it's not my fault that you seem to gloss over the fact that you brought reality into a game series that includes Trolls, Dragons, Zombies, Skeletons, Giant Flora and Fauna among other fantastical things

What? The Aldmeri Dominion's soldiers can match the trained Legions. The Stormcloaks are fighting a Militia, Auxiliary Legions. This is telling you, at the moment the Stormcloaks stand zero chance against the armies of the Dominion until they're properly trained.
Just like the Americans stood zero chance against the British. I'm sure we're all aware of how that went.

Why would it be a problem? How the hell do you think Empire's in Tamriel were forged? Did they just start out very powerful? No.
The Wild hunt would be a considerable problem

The Empire has in the past attacked Valenwood and Elsweyr.
They came to a stalemate with Elsweyr and had to sign a treaty, And they used the Numidium for Valenwood and Alinor.

The Empire is weak, so is the Aldmeri Dominion. I didn't forget about the Wind Hunt, that tends to happen when you start destroying the plant life.It also requires the Bosmer conduct a ritual, and after their ethnic cleansing and racial pruges from the Thalmor... They're not exactly going to rush to save them.
Right so when we invade Valenwood we get annihilated but when the, superior in every way, Imperials do it they're totally readyto face such a threat they've never faced before.

I was joking about the Tiger mounts being a problem, the Empire has fought the Khajiit before.
And were brought to a Stalemate because the Khajiit refused assimilation. The only way Tiber Septim could get them under his wing is if he left there religion alone and permitted them to worship with outside protection
And Before you go on a Tirade on how none of this is true and want me to cite my sources let me show you where their sources come from:

~ Research ~


Yeah, it was a close call. We had like five people left.
Let me rephrase: Barely scraped away with their Empire still in-tact

The Legions destroyed was during the war. Not just Red Ring, and shoddy tactics? Are you serious? Titus II's tactics is what made them win. In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come
A model for Imperial Strategist to, come to never again repeat as it lead to the gratuitous loss of life for both sides.

Yeah two Legions. Real shame there's Nine Auxiliary Legions in Skyrim at the end of the Civil War, and probably 10-18 standard Legions in Cyrodiil.
But remember what the book says:"Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty."
Now if there were 10-18 Standard Imperial Legions in Cyrodiil after the end of the Great War, that would result in around 6 Legions left remaining(assuming we are using the maximum here) so more than Half of the Imperial Forces were destroyed or wounded. Whether they were permanently or temporarily wounded is not known but it is certainly not be taken as lightly as you seem to think it should be

The Empire also has thousands of Mercenaries under their employ.
Yeah that will be great for Moral.

You're ready to fight the Dominion? Good luck on that.
Oh I certainly am and I know plenty of Stormcloaks that wouldn't blink at the chance.

Aw, poor Stormcloaks. Military life too hard for you, don't like them long campaigns of eating rations.
WAHHHH my Leather Armor that weighs literally 15 all together. wahhhhh.

How? The Imperial army is gathered in Cyrodiil, the forces in Skyrim are locally recruited. Still stronger than the Stormcloaks, all you have is a few old Legionnaires and basic trained militia.
With hate fuel and a very, Inspirational leader. Last Time I checked you had a leader with an arrow in his face.

Empire has basic trained Militia, thousands of trained soldiers and thousands of mercenaries. Even without Skyrim or High Rock, Cyrodiil will still be stronger than the Stormcloaks.
not really Your pushing power comes from the Orcs of Orsinium and Nords of Skyrim while Imperials and Bretons seem to make up the support. Without the provinces you have Imperials and however many locally recruited forces still remain in Cyrodiil. Your Military dominance came from the great genetic variation now you have two maybe three provinces of warriors and mages. You'll be beaten by the far superior Altmeri Battlemages as well as the Bosmeri Archers that are commonplace. You will beat the Khajiit warriors although they have you beaten in the spy department with the Alfiq being the common size and look of a house cat, making them excellent for Espionage.

There are still Redguards in the Legions.
And this proves what?

Funny how it was the Empire who wrote that history, where the knowledge of that event can be found. The Empire does fund research into the history of other cultures, so your comment doesn't make sense
And its the Empire that's about to make the same mistake King Borgas did taht they apparently wrote the books on.

General Tullius understood that the Moot elected the King. He didn't understand the issue with the crown, and Tullius was sent to Skyrim at a whim.
He also didn't understand very basic things like where the Nords go when they Die, and why they respected the Greybeards so much.

If you're sent to a country tomorrow, are you going to be an expert of thousandyears of tradition mixed with politics and be 100% versed in it without help in only several weeks?

I'd love to see you pull that off.
If I'm an Imperial General who's supposed to be well versed in Tamrielic History and Lore for Obvious reasons I should be expected to know these things. Why is it that your esteemed general barely knew anything about the country he's quite literally right next to. Even going as far as to call us Barbarians. Shameful, one of the many reasons I went Stormcloak.

Yeah, Hammerfell devastated itself with their five year war against the Thalmor. Skyrim is fighting itself, making themselves weaker on the brink of war with the Thalmor.
which makes you wonder why does The Empire even still wan't Skyrim.

Lost two legions over four years of fighting. Actually no, better we only lost them in Red Ring, since we obviously kicked the ass out of the Thalmor to only lose men in a single battle.
Ahem:The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.
So yeah, you lost two Legions in the Final Battle and this isn't even counting all of the soldiers lost in the entirety of the Great War.

Better hope not, if Cyrodiil falls. So does all of Tamriel.
Are you saying that everybody else is so unsophisticated and Barbaric that we simply can't rule ourselves without some "Imperial Civility and Diplomacy" If that's what you think than you can shove it you posh, overbearing, ass.

Yeah, guerrilla tactics will be awesome when you invade the Aldmeri Dominion.
Again not going to happen

Ulfric leading your armies? Hahahaha, I'd give you three weeks before the Aldmeri surround you, and slaughter you.
Still more time than Titus gave you.

The Empire has: Thousands of soldiers and thousands of mercenaries. Some of the best training in Tamriel, and espionage agents, Imperial Rangers, The Shadow Legion etc.
And also: Corruption in the Elder Council, Not even half of its strength from before the Great War, and of course it's completely Heirless.

So when thousands of Nords died, with good training. That was what? One time thing?
Or they had to Hold the line while: Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks.
Good work Titus! you got your most faithful Legion surrounded by Two Aldmeri attacks sacrificing most of them while you remained on the attack from the west. You dickless, heartless, fuzzy kitten Titus. Nice Work!:D

Yeah, by all means send farmers against highly trained soldiers/Battlemages.
Last time I checked those Farmers did a lot better than the Auxiliaries did when I paired them all against each other. But that was just my experience.

The Imperial Legion isn't going to march blindly around. They have scouts, they have rangers, they've had spies in those provinces. What new diseases? The Legions have been in these areas before, they have healers.
Only a fraction of the Legions have ever been in Valenwood before and they're all dead. Its been over a hundred years since you've been in Valenwood, sure you documented the terrain but you haven't built your men up to a stable immunity to all sorts of new Bacteria and Disease and hellbeasts roaming around the area.

Look at a map of Tamriel. Can you play spot Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock?
I can, and from what I can tell not only does Skyrim not even make up 1/3 of the Empires Landmass, but its also the most divided and fractured hold the Empire could ever hope to attain. I don't even why they wan't it at this point.

Stormcloaks aren't fighting a defensive war, Ulfric plans to take his entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion. So Rikke calls him a fool.
I thought Rikke called him a fool because He had his army named after him (even though he didn't). Also, Galmar wants to take the fight to them. Ulfric was cautious about Whiterun, hes not stupid enough and as blinded by rage as Galmar is to take the fight to the all of the Dominion.

I don't doubt the Stormcloaks wouldn't miss the war, I doubt Ulfric's tactics. If he's taking his entire army through Pale Pass, they may all get killed.
Just like if the Empire take their men to Valenwood they'll all get killed, horribly, ripped apart, Ill give them credit though they're pretty brave for doing so, about as brave as this guy:
.
Also What makes you think he'll take his men to fight through the Pale Pass? Is that said anywhere, or what?[/quote][/quote]
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
@Mikulas


Normally when you have a piece claiming to present accurate facts that uses language such as "bullpl*ps" or esp "deserves", you can be assured that the author is full of "charged bias" and is not presenting an accurate rep of the facts. My video did that btw with sources, without having to overly express the author's opinion in a novel across the screen. A slide is just that, a slide, not a bunch of thoughts jumbled together.

And F8ck what Ulfric deserves, that's not up to him to decide, that's why Skyrim has a moot.

(Yep IE failed me again, going to try Chrome again)
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Fine, that is true they can be killed. but tell me were there any accounts of glorious Tongue's being caught and tortured by Elves or just accounts of them being hit by arrows?

Talos had his throat slit. Oh plops. Espionage worked on a Dragonborn?! :rolleyes:

Also

This was actually the second "Battle of Red Mountain" recorded in history; the first occurred over two hundred years before in 1E 416 and set the stage for the 1E 700 battle. Chimer-Dwemer forces under the newly-formed First Council repulsed Nord conquerors (who were weakened by theSkyrim War of Succession) and united Morrowind for the first time. Witnessing that ignominious defeat compelled the Nordic leader Jurgen Windcaller, the most powerful Tongue of the First Era, to pursue his famous seven-year meditation on "how Strong Voices could fail", culminating in the discovery of the Way of the Voice and the formation of the Greybeards.




Idolaf was the only one who knew about the letter to Tulius. Nobody else inquired about anything.

There you go spouting info you make up. Jon knows about the Letter as well. He brings it to you if you blackmail him.


Just like the Americans stood zero chance against the British. I'm sure we're all aware of how that went.

Oh sweet mother of God stop embarrassing US history.

Britain was in high tensity with the other countries around them, who supported the Americans and think about it for a split second. Back then, Naval travel was hard. Very hard. And guess who would have to get through 2 provinces minimum and then cross the ocean towards the Isles? You really think Skyrim has the chance to do all that? Be realistic instead of foolhardy.



Right so when we invade Valenwood we get annihilated but when the, superior in every way, Imperials do it they're totally readyto face such a threat they've never faced before.

One Province vs minimum Three if Cyrodiil allows Skyrim Passage. Right.

Three Provinces VS Three Provinces if Skyrim stays with the Empire.

HMMMMMMM




Yeah that will be great for Moral.
Yeah, since when have mercenaries ever boosted moral right? Things like the Fighters Guild and the Companions are frowned upon and shamed.


Are you saying that everybody else is so unsophisticated and Barbaric that we simply can't rule ourselves without some "Imperial Civility and Diplomacy" If that's what you think than you can shove it you posh, overbearing, ass.

Grow a backbone kid. Seriously, your childish insults are pathetic. I was trolling you and belittling you sure, but Mage has not outwardly attacked you at all. Show some God damn respect to your peers.

He was saying that if the Empire falls, the Thalmor will destroy skyrim, take the final tower and unmake the World as is their plan. There will be no Skyrim left for you to live in.


Last time I checked those Farmers did a lot better than the Auxiliaries did when I paired them all against each other. But that was just my experience.

Dat false info doe
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Fine, that is true they can be killed. but tell me were there any accounts of glorious Tongue's being caught and tortured by Elves or just accounts of them being hit by arrows?

Ulfric isn't a 'glorious tongue', he's a novice in comparison to the old Thu'um users.

Seeing as though he was raised to believe that using the Thu'um in any other way than worship of Kyne is strictly forbidden I doubt he, being young and gullible, would. And before you ask here:
"Although I rarely use my training the Greybeards believe shouts should only be for the worship of Kynareth."
"I doubt Arngeir has forgiven me. And for well, what he would call Blasphemy, using the voice for anything other than the worship of Kynareth."
Both of these quotes are by Ulfric when you ask him about The Greybeards

So he won't use it in the Great War, but he'll use it several months after the war? Right. Him being young and brash was part of his reason for leaving, he mentions Arngeir calling it one of his many failings. Ulfric was raised in the Greybeards, he went as a boy and obviously was going through teenage and young adult years at the time he was gaining more power.

I'm saying he immediately gives us a bad view of the family because he is the head of the Family. Vignar saying you can't join the Companions doesn't concern me because,
1.) He doesn't speak for the entirety of the Companions and half of the Companions say I can't anyway, so its pretty harmless
2.) It's not nearly as bad as saying "Your Stupid son died a Stormcloak Traitor!"

Point being? He gives them a bad view, big deal. Windhelm gives Ulfric a bad view when you walk in the first time. It is all about looking past the surface.

Idolaf was the only one who knew about the letter to Tulius. Nobody else inquired about anything.

How could they inquire, most thought he was either missing or dead. Idolaf was the only one with Legion contacts.

Did you not see the chart? must I paint a picture?
The Family Tree of the Battle-Borns is as follows:

That means Idolaf is not the son. Or that they practice incest. I hope its the former although I suppose that would explain a lot.

Must I paint a picture? Read the entire page, that information is guess work because the family relationships are unknown due to conflicting information in-game and in the CK.

Read all of something before posting it as solid fact.

And murder and other immoral acts as they clearly put it.

Yeah, killing someone tends to be murder. Doing what is needed.

And where does it say he was a Thalmor agent?

Go buy the novels, read for yourself. You're commenting on things you have no idea about.

And it's not my fault that you seem to gloss over the fact that you brought reality into a game series that includes Trolls, Dragons, Zombies, Skeletons, Giant Flora and Fauna among other fantastical things

Because espionage doesn't happen in the real world. I wasn't bringing up the Vietnam War and using that as evidence. I mentioned even in our world we do these things.

Just like the Americans stood zero chance against the British. I'm sure we're all aware of how that went.

Actually you did stand zero chance, if it wasn't for the French you'd be singing God Save the Queen.

The Wild hunt would be a considerable problem

The Wild Hunt can only happen if the Bosmer conduct a ritual, which they're not proud of. They also have many reasons to hate the Thalmor.

They came to a stalemate with Elsweyr and had to sign a treaty, And they used the Numidium for Valenwood and Alinor.

Yeah because the Second Empire also had the Dwemer Golem. Valenwood and Elsweyr aren't impossible to invade.

Right so when we invade Valenwood we get annihilated but when the, superior in every way, Imperials do it they're totally readyto face such a threat they've never faced before.

That was with Raijin going on about sending hundreds of Werewolves to invade and completely tear everyone to pieces.

And were brought to a Stalemate because the Khajiit refused assimilation. The only way Tiber Septim could get them under his wing is if he left there religion alone and permitted them to worship with outside protection

The Empire doesn't need to assimilate the Khajiit, just need to push out Aldmeri Dominion forces/governments.


A model for Imperial Strategist to, come to never again repeat as it lead to the gratuitous loss of life for both sides.

Yeah, the Nords must be pretty stupid then. They believed that if they didn't retake the Imperial City, they would lose the war.

But remember what the book says:"Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty."
Now if there were 10-18 Standard Imperial Legions in Cyrodiil after the end of the Great War, that would result in around 6 Legions left remaining(assuming we are using the maximum here) so more than Half of the Imperial Forces were destroyed or wounded. Whether they were permanently or temporarily wounded is not known but it is certainly not be taken as lightly as you seem to think it should be

That was nearly three decades ago. You still think the Imperial legions are under half strength, barely any soldiers fit for duty, thousands of wounded?

WAHHHH my Leather Armor that weighs literally 15 all together. wahhhhh.

You've obviously never worn armor for extended periods of time. Neither has many of the Auxiliaries. The weight of gear will begin to feel heavy after hours of walking around. Go bitch to someone in the Military about how easy it is to carry around gear all day after patrols. You're forgetting they also carry a sword, dagger and bow.

With hate fuel and a very, Inspirational leader. Last Time I checked you had a leader with an arrow in his face.

Yeah, because words will get you far. Last time I checked, the Imperial Legion has many leaders.

not really Your pushing power comes from the Orcs of Orsinium and Nords of Skyrim while Imperials and Bretons seem to make up the support.

Orcs still join the Legions, still loyal to the Empire. Imperials and Bretons make up support? Are you serious? It doesn't matter what race you are, what you do depends on your ability. A Nord soldier is no different to an Imperial or Breton soldier.

Without the provinces you have Imperials and however many locally recruited forces still remain in Cyrodiil.

Actually we have the Legions from High Rock and Skyrim already in Cyrodiil. They're not province loyal.

Your Military dominance came from the great genetic variation now you have two maybe three provinces of warriors and mages.

Actually the Military Dominance came from the mix of Colovian soldiers and Nibenese Battlemages. Added in with the Akaviri influences it became a very effective fighting force, due to tactics, equipment and training.

The different provinces all brought something that has been preserved in the Legion. Even without those provinces, it'll still remain.

You'll be beaten by the far superior Altmeri Battlemages as well as the Bosmeri Archers that are commonplace.

Far superior? Race doesn't make you better, in fact an ex Shadow Legionnaire talks about blasting apart Elven soldiers with magic.

You will beat the Khajiit warriors although they have you beaten in the spy department with the Alfiq being the common size and look of a house cat, making them excellent for Espionage.

Yes, they make perfect spies. Except being unable to respond what they found out.

And this proves what?

That even without Hammerfell, the source of great soldiers is still in the Legions. Hammerfell didn't train the Redguard Legionnaires the Legions did.

A province doesn't produce great soldiers, the Legion produces great soldiers. Military training isn't a genetic trait.

And its the Empire that's about to make the same mistake King Borgas did taht they apparently wrote the books on.

Borgas was an idiot. Also the Thalmor of the Fourth Era are very different to past groups. Many Bosmer have good reasons to fight back against the Thalmor.

He also didn't understand very basic things like where the Nords go when they Die, and why they respected the Greybeards so much.

Yeah because knowing their after life is part of Military tactics 101. He wasn't being disrespectful, if you look into it, it says 'gracious, but gruff' http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000658ee

All Tullius says about the Greybeards and Nords is this:
I'm always surprised by how seriously the Nords take these things.

If I'm an Imperial General who's supposed to be well versed in Tamrielic History and Lore for Obvious reasons I should be expected to know these things.

What reasons? He's a Military General, not a Teacher. History of warfare perhaps, but not Nordic politics.

Why is it that your esteemed general barely knew anything about the country he's quite literally right next to. Even going as far as to call us Barbarians. Shameful, one of the many reasons I went Stormcloak.

He knew the main things. Obviously he isn't going to know about a god damn crown that has been missing since the First Era. He also knew he needed help, hence why his second in command is a Nord.

which makes you wonder why does The Empire even still wan't Skyrim.

Because there are still thousands of Imperial citizens within Skyrim. Do you think they should just abandon them to Ulfric's uprising, that they should let him attack cities and claim the throne?

Ahem:The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.
So yeah, you lost two Legions in the Final Battle and this isn't even counting all of the soldiers lost in the entirety of the Great War.

That is counting all the soldiers in the war. But what do you expect, of course Red Ring would be a bitch. The Aldmeri were entrenched within the Imperial City.

Are you saying that everybody else is so unsophisticated and Barbaric that we simply can't rule ourselves without some "Imperial Civility and Diplomacy" If that's what you think than you can shove it you posh, overbearing, ass.

Calm down boy. Cyrodiil is the entry point into the other provinces, it also has the White-Gold Tower which has hidden magicks that can unmake Mundas and make it dissolve into Oblivion.

Again not going to happen

So you're not going to invade the Aldmeri Dominion? Your entire cause is a lie then.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Still more time than Titus gave you.

Titus II was still a better tactician than Ulfric Stormcloak.

And also: Corruption in the Elder Council, Not even half of its strength from before the Great War, and of course it's completely Heirless.

How do you know there isn't an heir? Mede still has a living Aunt, and there is nothing in-game saying he has no heir. Tullius doesn't even care, he just removes Titus II's name from the oath.

Or they had to Hold the line while: Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks.
Good work Titus! you got your most faithful Legion surrounded by Two Aldmeri attacks sacrificing most of them while you remained on the attack from the west. You dickless, heartless, fuzzy kitten Titus. Nice Work!:D

Or the fact Nord Legions were fighting in Cyrodiil and losing battles for three years?

Legions* it wasn't his "Most faithful Legion" Jonna was commanding more than one Legion. Also the it is Cyrodiil's Third Legion which is actually nicknamed 'The Faithful'

Last time I checked those Farmers did a lot better than the Auxiliaries did when I paired them all against each other. But that was just my experience.

In-game stats doesn't translate over to lore.

Only a fraction of the Legions have ever been in Valenwood before and they're all dead. Its been over a hundred years since you've been in Valenwood, sure you documented the terrain but you haven't built your men up to a stable immunity to all sorts of new Bacteria and Disease and hellbeasts roaming around the area.

Diseases are well documented. Besides, what do you think healers are for, or just a simple 'Cure Disease Potion'? We do have alchemists genius.

I can, and from what I can tell not only does Skyrim not even make up 1/3 of the Empires Landmass, but its also the most divided and fractured hold the Empire could ever hope to attain. I don't even why they wan't it at this point.

Look at Tamriel. Skyrim is between Cyrodiil and High Rock. Remove Skyrim and you cut off Cyrodiil - High Rock.

The Empire isn't fighting for the land, speak to every Legate. It is to do with the citizenry also.

I thought Rikke called him a fool because He had his army named after him (even though he didn't). Also, Galmar wants to take the fight to them. Ulfric was cautious about Whiterun, hes not stupid enough and as blinded by rage as Galmar is to take the fight to the all of the Dominion.

"When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." - Ulfric Stormcloak

Just like if the Empire take their men to Valenwood they'll all get killed, horribly, ripped apart, Ill give them credit though they're pretty brave for doing so, about as brave as this guy:

Not all of them. Some perhaps, but several Legions should manage.

Also What makes you think he'll take his men to fight through the Pale Pass? Is that said anywhere, or what?

Because how else will he get an army to the Aldmeri Dominion? He will need to go into Cyrodiil or does he plan to sail to Alinor?

Even I don't think Ulfric is that stupid to sail towards Summerset isle, the Aldmeri Navy will cut them to pieces and being without reinforcements or supplies for months at a time on foreign land is a huge mistake.
 

Vatonage

Joyeuse et Glorieuse
@Mikulas


Normally when you have a piece claiming to present accurate facts that uses language such as "bullpl*ps" or esp "deserves", you can be assured that the author is full of "charged bias" and is not presenting an accurate rep of the facts. My video did that btw with sources, without having to overly express the author's opinion in a novel across the screen. A slide is just that, a slide, not a bunch of thoughts jumbled together.

And F8ck what Ulfric deserves, that's not up to him to decide, that's why Skyrim has a moot.

(Yep IE failed me again, going to try Chrome again)
Is that a good reason to dismiss all of the points brought forth? Bias can't be avoided, only suppressed.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Even I don't think Ulfric is that stupid to sail towards Summerset isle, the Aldmeri Navy will cut them to pieces and being without reinforcements or supplies for months at a time on foreign land is a huge mistake.

They wouldn't even get that far. I guess shortly after passing Stros M'Kai they'd be crushed.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
Talos had his throat slit. Oh pl***. Espionage worked on a Dragonborn?! :rolleyes:

Also

This was actually the second "Battle of Red Mountain" recorded in history; the first occurred over two hundred years before in 1E 416 and set the stage for the 1E 700 battle. Chimer-Dwemer forces under the newly-formed First Council repulsed Nord conquerors (who were weakened by theSkyrimWar of Succession) and united Morrowind for the first time. Witnessing that ignominious defeat compelled the Nordic leader Jurgen Windcaller, the most powerful Tongue of the First Era, to pursue his famous seven-year meditation on "how Strong Voices could fail", culminating in the discovery of the Way of the Voice and the formation of the Greybeards.

Retard, I know. I believe I told you off with this before actually. My question are there any accounts of Tongues being captured and you give me a summary of how the Tongues have lost before. I know they lost before, My question was: Were they captured? Give me some info on that?
You get so frustrated so easily. Its quite Humorous.




Oh sweet mother of God stop embarrassing US history.

Britain was in high tensity with the other countries around them, who supported the Americans and think about it for a split second. Back then, Naval travel was hard. Very hard. And guess who would have to get through 2 provinces minimum and then cross the ocean towards the Isles? You really think Skyrim has the chance to do all that? Be realistic instead of foolhardy.
America had the physical support of France that's it, And France didn't join the war until the Third year of fighting, while supplying us with munitions secretly and Providing great Naval support. other than that we did most of the Fighting.

One Province vs minimum Three if Cyrodiil allows Skyrim Passage. Right.

Three Provinces VS Three Provinces if Skyrim stays with the Empire.

HMMMMMMM.
It will still be Three Provinces vs Three Provinces regardless of Skyrims political affiliation unless the Empire is just going to sit out the 2nd Great War.

Yeah, since when have mercenaries ever boosted moral right? Things like the Fighters Guild and the Companions are frowned upon and shamed.
They aren't involved in the War. Ask Any Companion's stance on the War and he/she will tell you they aren't allowed to pick sides. Also it generally isn't good for Moral when you have Mercenaries getting paid more than the soldiers you have trained from boot camp.

Grow a backbone kid. Seriously, your childish insults are pathetic. I was trolling you and belittling you sure, but Mage has not outwardly attacked you at all. Show some God damn respect to your peers.
Because you certainly have. Oh No, you two have been completely respectful to me in every way. No hypocracy in this post. "Show some God damn respect to your peers." Alright Judge Judy. Get over yourself.

He was saying that if the Empire falls, the Thalmor will destroy skyrim, take the final tower and unmake the World as is their plan. There will be no Skyrim left for you to live in.
The Empire is hardly alive now. What makes you think they hold any weight in anything.

Dat false info doe.
Go see for yourself friend.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
Thanks for the laugh bro! I truly needed a good laugh for the day because I knew exactly where this video was heading for.



Oh yeah? Well that's excellent. What was your favorite part?

I personally couldn't stop laughing for several minutes when they cut to Ulfric. It's like... yeah and the Thalmor are using this fl*ffing guy right here... and... hehehe... and he's just sitting there with his hair braided looking up like... "Nuh-uh, stop picking on me guys". LMAO
 

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