Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Rimfaxe96 said:

Jeremius said:

The Empire set the law, the people of Skyrim suffer for it. Can't blame the rebels for what they are doing. I bet most of the rebels actually choose the rebellion for legitimate reasons, and not because they are willing to serve as Ulfric's ambition hounds.

What has the Empire done for Skyrim? Put them under a Thalmor law and strip them of resources used to fill the pockets of the elder council, as far as I know. that is not helpful.

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The Concordat set the law, the Empire had to accept it. The number of people suffering under this rule would be a minority like the author of "Flight from the Thalmor" who had to do it as obviously and publicly as possible - and still, that guy was singing at the top of his lungs about Talos and it took a full week to get to the arrest. Meanwhile a few hundred Nords were worshipping Talos in the land who didn't have to worry about it because they could keep quiet. Like a big national secret, and only those who couldn't keep their pride down a bit had to feel the consequences.

Now thanks to the Markarth Incident and the Thalmor's greater presence in Skyrim, things have changed regarding the Stormcloaks. With the Imperials being too busy looking out for rebel attacks instead of checking what the Justiciars are actually doing, the Stormcloaks have basically given the Thalmor much more influence. It benefits the Stormcloaks as well, take Ralof for example. His cousin had to be kidnapped for him to join the Stormcloaks, and the Stormcloaks got a good soldier for themselves. Too bad it harms the Empire, the only threat and obstacle the Dominion has.

The Empire offers possibilities regarding trade and security (remove the latter thanks to the Stormcloaks for now). Blacksmiths and miners are probably among the top earners now, just take Lod in Falkreath who's ordering more ion ore and even offers extra payment 'cause the Imperials need weapons. Too bad the Stormcloaks are around, otherwise for example food resources wouldn't have to be used for the Legion.

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you are not seeing the connections. The Empire signed the WGC because it was lazy and did not take the Thalmor seriously. Had they taken them seriously, the Thalmor might have been beaten long before the battle of red ring, which makes signing the WGC not happening. Without the Empire signing the WGC, Talos would not have been banned which led to Ulfric being used as a scapegoat for the Empire's failures, which led to the creation of Ulfric's "army for his own ambition."

Jeremius said:

you are not seeing the connections. The Empire signed the WGC because it was lazy and did not take the Thalmor seriously. Had they taken them seriously, the Thalmor might have been beaten long before the battle of red ring, which makes signing the WGC not happening. Without the Empire signing the WGC, Talos would not have been banned which led to Ulfric being used as a scapegoat for the Empire's failures, which led to the creation of Ulfric's "army for his own ambition."

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Cyrodiil is far away from the Summerset Isles/Alinor. The Empire was busy putting its pieces back toether after the Oblivion Crisis within its own borders, even 'forgot' about Morrowind entirely. And even years after the Thalmor had control not even the Blades, who'd kept an eye on them for ages and even performed several sabotage missions underestimated them.
How is an Emperor in a big tower miles away supposed to know if not even agents living as their neighbors did?

Rimfaxe96 said:

Cyrodiil is far away from the Summerset Isles/Alinor. The Empire was busy putting its pieces back toether after the Oblivion Crisis within its own borders, even 'forgot' about Morrowind entirely. And even years after the Thalmor had control not even the Blades, who'd kept an eye on them for ages and even performed several sabotage missions underestimated them.
How is an Emperor in a big tower miles away supposed to know if not even agents living as their neighbors did?

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Weren't they warned about the Thalmor? would that not be something to keep an eye on if it was repeated? IF they were not warned at all, it would be different.

paranoia can help out alot. And even simply keeping an eye on the provinces and being prepared just in case make a huge difference.

Jeremius said:

The Empire set the law, the people of Skyrim suffer for it.

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The Empire is Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock. They make up what an Empire is, the people of Skyrim are citizens of the Empire.

Jeremius said:

Can't blame the rebels for what they are doing. I bet most of the rebels actually choose the rebellion for legitimate reasons, and not because they are willing to serve as Ulfric's ambition hounds.

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The rebels do have a good cause, but they're only inflaming tensions and distracting the Empire from the Aldmeri Dominion. The reasons many Nords fight are either they think they're a true Nord or the Thalmor sent them flocking to Ulfric's banners.

The rest? They've simply let a manipulative politician warp their views, now they actually believe Torygg was the cause of the White-Gold Concordat and the Empire surrendered when the Imperial City was nearly destroyed.

Jeremius said:

What has the Empire done for Skyrim? Put them under a Thalmor law and strip them of resources used to fill the pockets of the elder council, as far as I know. that is not helpful.

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The Empire brought unity, stopped the petty infighting between the Holds. They brought order, stability, brought Nord warriors glory in battles fought for the Empire, they brought trade and prosperity.

What has Ulfric done for Skyrim? He's brought war and death, he's not even a good Jarl. Just because he killed High King Torygg using the Thu'um it somehow makes him a better King?

Can you name one thing Ulfric did, that didn't further his image, or suit his ambitions? Is there even the smallest deed he did good, before his war, when he ruled in peace?

He's let pirates control his waters, his people live in fear of being murdered, half the city hates him and wants him dead. He drove a wedge between Nords and other races, banishing Argonians and ignoring the Dunmer. Claiming he hasn't the time to even visit the Gray Quarter, but he has all the time to sit around on his throne and visit the Temple of Talos the Priestess mentions.

Ulfric is ignoring Windhelm and his own Steward doesn't even do anything for the city.

Asking Jorleif what duties he performs for the Jarl while Ulfric controls the city will have him say: "For Ulfric? Oh, nothing official. Known him for years. He seems to value my thoughts, and I'm grateful for that. I don't really have a mind for war, and I think he likes having an untrained opinion from time to time." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Jorleif

The mark of a true King, his own city doesn't even have rulers. Ulfric too busy with the war, Galmar's only a soldier, and the Steward doesn't even do anything official. He's mainly used for the war conversations where Ulfric asks his opinions.

The city suffers, the people suffer... Where is this great would be King to create a stronger Skyrim?

DrunkenMage said:

Can you name one thing Ulfric did, that didn't further his image, or suit his ambitions? Is there even the smallest deed he did good, before his war, when he ruled in peace?

He's let pirates control his waters, his people live in fear of being murdered, half the city hates him and wants him dead. He drove a wedge between Nords and other races, banishing Argonians and ignoring the Dunmer. Claiming he hasn't the time to even visit the Gray Quarter, but he has all the time to sit around on his throne and visit the Temple of Talos the Priestess mentions.

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Is there anywhere in my posts that you quoted that said anyting good about Ulfric? All I said is that the Stormcloaks have reasons other than being some Jarl's private power grabbers. That is true, as none of the Stormcloaks actually say they are doing it because they want to grab power for Ulfric.

I also stated that the Empire created the rebellion, which is true as well, as it was the Empire's actions that caused the Markarth Incident that led to the "creation" of the Stormcloaks.

Jeremius said:

Is there anywhere in my posts that you quoted that said anyting good about Ulfric? All I said is that the Stormcloaks have reasons other than being some Jarl's private power grabbers. That is true, as none of the Stormcloaks actually say they are doing it because they want to grab power for Ulfric.

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The Stormcloaks are Ulfric, they call him the truest of them all. The Stormcloaks do have reasons, but so too does the Empire. Both sides have good reasons, and all the Stormcloaks are doing is distracting the Empire while the Thalmor gather their strength.

Jeremius said:

I also stated that the Empire created the rebellion, which is true as well, as it was the Empire's actions that caused the Markarth Incident that led to the "creation" of the Stormcloaks.

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The Jarl who arrested the Nords at the command of the Thalmor, created the beginning of the Stormcloak cause. Ulfric himself actually caused the rebellion, the Markarth Incident is just one thing Ulfric uses to justify his rebellion.

What is your point that the Empire created the rebellion? Ulfric created the rebellion. The Empire didn't. Did the Empire tell Ulfric to kill High King Torygg? Did the Empire make Ulfric wage war against the Western Holds? No, Ulfric did so.

What are you trying to argue? Stormcloaks have good reasons, and the Empire caused the rebellion?

I could just argue that Balgruuf has blonde hair. Which is basically what you're falling back onto, have you lost the debate that you're discrediting your arguments and stripping them to their most basic?

Stormcloaks have good reasons. Markarth caused the rebellion etc.

Stormcloaks. Did you hear Ulfric when he saw Elenweyn at the Season Unending quest? He hates the idea of torture. Plus, blue armour.

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Dovahgeek said:

He hates the idea of torture.

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I'd believe that if he didn't have torture equipment in his palace. But he does, so he isn't above it.

DrunkenMage said:

Jeremius said:

I also stated that the Empire created the rebellion, which is true as well, as it was the Empire's actions that caused the Markarth Incident that led to the "creation" of the Stormcloaks.

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The Jarl who arrested the Nords at the command of the Thalmor, created the beginning of the Stormcloak cause. Ulfric himself actually caused the rebellion, the Markarth Incident is just one thing Ulfric uses to justify his rebellion.

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If it was not for the Great War, the WGC, the Empire getting haughty and ignoring the warnings they were given, the Jarls in charge would not have Arrested Ulfric, which means no cause, which means no "murder", which means no rebellion.

There is no ONE THING, like you and Rimfaxe96 say there is. could the Markarth Incident happen had the Empire turned right and took the warnings seriously and prep early?

Been away for a while, and still don't care.

But I think that when it comes down to the issue of who created the rebellion, both sides had a factor in it. Without the Empire not being prepared for the Thalmor invasion, the Great War would have turned out differently, which would have kept the WGC from being signed, and that would have prevented the Markarth Incident. Without the Markarth incident, how likely would it have been for Ulfric to get the support he needed for his "power grab" that was coincidentally started only because Skyrim accepted the White-Gold Concordant through their High King alone?

So in the end, both DrunkenMage and Jeremius are right.

Jeremius said:

If it was not for the Great War, the WGC, the Empire getting haughty and ignoring the warnings they were given, the Jarls in charge would not have Arrested Ulfric, which means no cause, which means no "murder", which means no rebellion.

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You're using my argument about the warnings, foolish decision. I post things in such a way, hopeful people would at least research it.

The Empire was warned the Thalmor were a threat, yes. But they weren't ever warned about invasions, or the Thalmor were massing an army. The Thalmor are dangerous, so the Blades were spying and causing espionage in Aldmeri lands. The Penitus Oculatus were infiltrating Thalmor cells in Imperial lands, keeping an eye on them and countering Thalmor espionage, with assassinations or feeding Thalmor assets false information.

Jeremius said:

There is no ONE THING, like you and Rimfaxe96 say there is. could the Markarth Incident happen had the Empire turned right and took the warnings seriously and prep early?

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Prepare how? What should the Empire exactly do? They were warned the Thalmor are a threat, the Blades and Penitus Oculatus kept them under check.

If you're the Emperor, what would you do? Why would you prepare for invasion when you've been given no indication of being attacked?

Your Legions are spread throughout the provinces to maintain order, and keep province rulers in check. Do you move all your forces to the Aldmeri border for no reason?

Keeping your military in one location, at the risk of losing control in the provinces with bandits, brigands, war lords or even those who wish to rebel against the throne. How long do you keep your military there? One year, five years, ten years, a hundred years, a hundred and fifty years?

You have to fund the whole thing, you have absolutely no justified reason. How do you convince the Elder Council, the rulers of the provinces who you've just taken majority of the soldiers from their lands. They have to deal with all the problems of trying to keep their authority, but they have to continue to pay you.

What about your navy, you'd need to position them there also. So now you're risking merchant vessels, leaving majority of the waters at the mercy of pirates.

Or do you invade the Aldmeri Dominion on a whim?

DrunkenMage: What should a leader do when they are told that there is a threat? leave it alone until it blows up? The Thalmor also demanded that the Empire give into them. Unlikely that the Thalmor had not threatened war when they demanded it the first time. Then there was the issue of the Empire accepting the terms that were demanded of them before the Great War in the Concordant. The Empire could have done SOME negotiating and tried to solidify more power for them in the Concordant.

Looking at all this, it is clear that the rebels are merely the result of the Empire's choices. Consequence if you will. Plus, the name "Stormcloaks" was more of an insult made by the Empire

After 761 pages we can all conclude that Stormcloaks are right, and people are arguing simply for the sake of arguing

Jeremy Stone said:

DrunkenMage: What should a leader do when they are told that there is a threat? leave it alone until it blows up? The Thalmor also demanded that the Empire give into them. Unlikely that the Thalmor had not threatened war when they demanded it the first time. Then there was the issue of the Empire accepting the terms that were demanded of them before the Great War in the Concordant. The Empire could have done SOME negotiating and tried to solidify more power for them in the Concordant.

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The Emperor didn't leave them alone, the Penitus Oculatus were dealing with the threats inside Imperial lands, the Blades outside Imperial borders. You're warned of a threat, but not a military might threat.

The Thalmor did threaten war when the original demands were brought to Titus Mede II. They invaded Cyrodiil and Hammerfell within days of the demands being made. You think the Empire should of somehow got word to all the Legions within days, and had them formed on the border?

How do you send a message to all your Legions, and transport thousands of soldiers across entire provinces within a few days?

The Empire could of done some negotiating? Cyrodiil was in ruins, nearly everything destroyed in the war, your military is greatly weakened and unable to continue the fight. Your citizens are in dire need of protection and the Aldmeri Dominion have another army in Hammerfell.

What stance is the Empire going to take in peace talks? You need the peace, the Thalmor for all you know can keep going. They still have another main army, and the main army in Cyrodiil was wiped out. We have no idea if there were more Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil, there was a secondary army mentioned.

You going to talk tough to the Thalmor at negotiations, when you haven't even got control of your capital province? You just threw everything you had at one main army, what are you going to do if the second main army decides to venture into Cyrodiil?

DrunkenMage: Unfortunately, being forced does not absolve them of creating this situation in the first place. Maybe it does for the imperial cowards, but not to everyone. Can you prove that without the events that happened, the Stormcloaks can still be created, because as far as I can tell, the events in the lore had to happen, and the Imperials were guided right into the trap.

DrunkenMage said:

The Penitus Oculatus were infiltrating Thalmor cells in Imperial lands, keeping an eye on them and countering Thalmor espionage, with assassinations or feeding Thalmor assets false information.

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How could I have forgotten that in my older argument?! It's what both TES novels tell you over and over again...

Jeremy Stone said:

DrunkenMage: Unfortunately, being forced does not absolve them of creating this situation in the first place. Maybe it does for the imperial cowards, but not to everyone. Can you prove that without the events that happened, the Stormcloaks can still be created, because as far as I can tell, the events in the lore had to happen, and the Imperials were guided right into the trap.

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It was always going to happen. The events were already set in motion prior to the Great War, Esbern says as much. He saw the signs, and tried to warn the other Blades.

Oh, yes! The prophecies make clear the signs that will precede the end times. One by one, I have seen them fulfilled. I tried to tell them. They wouldn't listen. Fools. It's all come true... all I could do was watch our doom approach...

As for the Stormcloaks being created, that is on Ulfric Stormcloak. He created them, his actions.

What does it even matter? Arguing how the Stormcloaks came into being. Be like me arguing General Tullius wouldn't be in Skyrim if it wasn't for Ulfric killing High King Torygg. Or arguing that it is the fault of Uriel VII for not eliminating the Thalmor party when they were a minority. Hell you could even blame Dagon for ending the Septim Dynasty and causing events to unfold.

It is pointless.

DrunkenMage said:

Jeremy Stone said:

DrunkenMage: Unfortunately, being forced does not absolve them of creating this situation in the first place. Maybe it does for the imperial cowards, but not to everyone. Can you prove that without the events that happened, the Stormcloaks can still be created, because as far as I can tell, the events in the lore had to happen, and the Imperials were guided right into the trap.

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As for the Stormcloaks being created, that is on Ulfric Stormcloak. He created them, his actions.

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but would Ulfric had created them if not for the Thalmor being in Skyrim thanks to the WGC? Would the Markarth incident have happened without the WGC? Just because the events were to happen does not mean you can dismiss the Empire's hand in the creation of the rebellion. Plus, if the events were meant to happen, would that mean it was meant for the rebellion to happen? Would that not mean that prophecy created the rebellion, not Ulfric?

It is like being told your friend would be a murderer in the future and it happening. Just because it was meant to happen, does that absolve you of your choice to not actually stop it? no.

Jeremy Stone said:

but would Ulfric had created them if not for the Thalmor being in Skyrim thanks to the WGC? Would the Markarth incident have happened without the WGC? Just because the events were to happen does not mean you can dismiss the Empire's hand in the creation of the rebellion. Plus, if the events were meant to happen, would that mean it was meant for the rebellion to happen? Would that not mean that prophecy created the rebellion, not Ulfric?

It is like being told your friend would be a murderer in the future and it happening. Just because it was meant to happen, does that absolve you of your choice to not actually stop it? no.

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Everything has a hand in current events, from the first Elder Scrolls game to this one. But it is pointless to argue about it, since it isn't relevant. Does it matter how the Stormcloaks were created? They've been created and are in open rebellion against the Empire. Arguing how events came to pass is moot.

Obviously there wouldn't of been a Markarth Incident without the White-Gold Concordat. But one could just argue there wouldn't of been an incident without Ulfric Stormcloak. If he stayed and became a Greybeard these events would not unfold, Ulfric wouldn't have been captured by the Thalmor and tortured, then used as an asset.

You could argue had Titus Mede II not retreated from the Imperial City there would be no White-Gold Concordat because the Empire would be crushed, leaderless and their capital lost.

Arguing the same basic stance on your clone account Jeremius, doesn't give it credence.