DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Thought about countering my Stormcloak arguments, cause I'm bored.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
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Thought about countering my Stormcloak arguments, cause I'm bored.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
J
Jeremius
Guest
The Empire fell with Martin. This-shell-is not the Empire.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
Martin Septim did little more than the duties a priest of Akatosh does for the Empire before the Oblivion Crisis. Saved the world from said Crisis just before his death, we'll never know whether the Empire would have been better - or worse - if he'd have had the chance to rule.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Except that he was the last true heir to the Septim Empire. This Empire is little more than a cowardly shell too afraid to stand up for itself.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
Because the name Septim alone makes you a worthy and clever ruler, because all the trouble the Empire had didn't happen before the Mede's ascended to the throne per bitchfighting, okay. And gathering all the manpower you have and using a strategy that no General etc would have ever dared to even think about in order to defeat the entire main army of the Dominion and that successfully, against all odds is behavior that earns you the title of "coward"?
Alright. Happy coward right here.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Main army that got blasted because the "Emperor" got complacent and ignored the Thalmor and then, when they had the slight upper hand, he turned chicken and signed a treaty with the thalmor, that dismissed the most important man in TES history, the god Talos.
No, surrendering when he had just dealt a crippling blow to the Dominion and agreeing to the very treaty that started the war in the first is place is what makes him a coward. If the Empire had continued to fight, the Dominion would have been forced to back down entirely. Hammerfell proved that. Instead, Mede surrendered and betrayed his own people to the Thalmor. Hammerfell was abandoned, and Skyrim was laid open for cultural genocide.
He was a shrewd tactician, but a terrible leader who lost any backbone he might've had during the war. If you follow the Dark Brotherhood quests, he doesn't even bother to fight back despite the fact that his death would throw what was left of the Empire into chaos.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
And how was he supposed to know how many men the Dominion had left? The victory of Hammerfell happened 5 years later and the Battle of the Red Ring didn't end without heavy losses. With nobody left to keep order and security the Empire would have truly gone to waste.
Plus, let's not forget that the Dominion isn't a random dumb NPC that strikes on the same opponent over and over again. Who knows, they might as well would have taken their forces from Hammerfell back to Cyrodiil.
As someone mentioned earlier, we don't know if the Elder Council had their hands in the surrender as well. They must've already considered Titus a madman for his advance back into the Imperial City, and now keep on fighting with the land and its people in ruins?
The Great War was ~30 years ago. Mede was probably a capable swordsman himself back then. But what good would an old man against an assassin, on top of that from the Dark Brotherhood, do? Titus was smart enough himself to know that, rather than arrogantly posture himself with lines like "You can't defeat me!" etc. He knows he's to old to keep on fighting. I just wonder, seeing how willingly he went and how he expected it, if he didn't prepare his Empire.
But let's not go too far on that one, we had it already; Imperial supporters can say "There's a mastermind waiting to kill elves in TES6!" as much as Stormcloak supporters can say "An Empire without a leader is an easy kill, we're all doomed if we stay!"
It's pure speculation.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Except there is no evidence on what will happen to the Empire, or IF Mede prepared the Empire for his death. that would be possible, but without evidence to support it, it is wrong.
And what does it matter? Titus Mede II started the war despite not knowing just how powerful the Dominion had become, against the advice of his generals who told him they were outclassed. Instead of taking the coward's way out and surrendering, he went against the odds and fought. He faced the same situation following the Battle of the Red Ring, but this time he gave in and submitted to the Thalmor.
Why the change? The war obviously shattered his morale. He'd taken a risk in challenging the Dominion, and he'd nearly lost his Empire because of it. He became a coward. In his eyes, it was better for the Empire to survive as a client state of the Dominion than to die free. This is why the Nords see him as unworthy to rule, and why the Stormcloaks were able to gain so much support. In their eyes, it's better to die fighting than to surrender and become a slave.
As for the Elder Council, we know very little about them and their level of influence over the Empire at that point in time. While it's possible that they forced the Emperor's hand, it's equally possible that the Thalmor assassinated him and replaced him with an impostor. There is no evidence to support either idea.
Also, there is a huge difference between accepting your death and simply letting someone kill you. Titus Mede didn't even bother to fight and die with some measure of honor.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
That's just what I said in my post.
Because if he hadn't done anything at all he would have faced civil war. The Empire would've been torn down from the inside, which of course would've made it an even easier target for conquest for the Dominion. Of course that sucks, all those people dying in vain, but for the survival of the Empire it was a necessity.
And Titus knows that too, even in that published book it's written: Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
You know, at some point people don't want war anymore. For example, the civil war in Skyrim hasn't been going for long and already we have NPC dialogue which says "I don't care that we lost, I'm just glad the war is over." should you finish the CW questline (Imperial victory; although different dialogue makes it clear that there're enough folk on the Imperial side who think likewise).
Fighting back isn't necessary to accept death. He knew he had it coming, I guess he's just happy he didn't have to be assassinated by some Thalmor kitten nightblade.
'I told him you can't stop the Dark Brotherhood. Never could.'
'You and I have a date with destiny. But so it is with assassins and emperors, hmm? Yes, I must die. And you must deliver the blow. It is simply the way it is.'
'You will kill me, and I have accepted that fate.'
Be aware that the Dark Brotherhood isn't known as some random group of killers. They are infamous and known for getting their jobs done; even secret agents fear them (as the book "Lord of Souls" shows).
Boy, I've made what now? 3 posts and I already grow tired of discussing. I don't know how Mage puts up with it.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Alright, I'll give Rimfaxe some support. Even though she doesn't need any.
Empire didn't surrender, it signed the White-Gold Concordat. They dealt a crippling blow, but at great cost. Three Legions wiped out, the rest under half strength, loss of Imperial authority for many years, cities erupting into violence during peace time.
The Empire didn't want to continue. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price. - Great War
Hammerfell proved they could fight a greatly weakened army in their home province. They signed a treaty with the Thalmor, but devastated what remained of the most liveable part of their province.
Signed a temporary peace to rebuild and fight another day. 'His people' mostly welcomed peace at almost any price.
Hammerfell refused the White-Gold Concordat, left the Empire little choice but to renounce them. Skyrim didn't have problems with the Thalmor until it was agitated by the 'Sons of Skyrim' (Stormcloak rebellion).
It is entirely possible Mede lost the will to lead after the Great War, as mentioned in the Dark Brotherhood quests to why the Emperor likely cancelled his original visit to Skyrim "Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."
There would be no point for Titus Mede II to fight you, he's old for one and secondly he's facing a Dark Brotherhood assassin unarmed.
His death won't throw the Empire into chaos. The death of an Emperor rarely does, only without heirs do people start freaking out and Tullius doesn't even seem phased about it.
What caused the issues after Septim Dynasty was the assassination of Ocato, not the Emperors. After the Reman Dynasty, the Akaviri Potentate ruled without any recorded issues for 282 years.
The Empire was also much larger back then, harder to maintain Imperial authority.
Empire didn't surrender, it signed the White-Gold Concordat. They dealt a crippling blow, but at great cost. Three Legions wiped out, the rest under half strength, loss of Imperial authority for many years, cities erupting into violence during peace time.
The Empire didn't want to continue. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price. - Great War
Hammerfell proved they could fight a greatly weakened army in their home province. They signed a treaty with the Thalmor, but devastated what remained of the most liveable part of their province.
Signed a temporary peace to rebuild and fight another day. 'His people' mostly welcomed peace at almost any price.
Hammerfell refused the White-Gold Concordat, left the Empire little choice but to renounce them. Skyrim didn't have problems with the Thalmor until it was agitated by the 'Sons of Skyrim' (Stormcloak rebellion).
It is entirely possible Mede lost the will to lead after the Great War, as mentioned in the Dark Brotherhood quests to why the Emperor likely cancelled his original visit to Skyrim "Seems the Emperor realized his presence would necessitate a more direct role in the ongoing hostilities. A role he was, obviously, unwilling to take."
There would be no point for Titus Mede II to fight you, he's old for one and secondly he's facing a Dark Brotherhood assassin unarmed.
His death won't throw the Empire into chaos. The death of an Emperor rarely does, only without heirs do people start freaking out and Tullius doesn't even seem phased about it.
What caused the issues after Septim Dynasty was the assassination of Ocato, not the Emperors. After the Reman Dynasty, the Akaviri Potentate ruled without any recorded issues for 282 years.
The Empire was also much larger back then, harder to maintain Imperial authority.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I enjoy debating, though I take normally an aggressive stance. If I can press an attack, I'll hammer in a hard argument. My weakness however comes from defending. I'm not good when forced into defensive.
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
I'd probably enjoy it a lot more if this was a black-white-argument. Would be way easier.
On the other hand, I' already be a lot easier anyway if I went like 50 pages back and just answered with quotes from your old arguments.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah, it'll never be quite black and white. More about how you present an argument to make it seem black-white, I constantly find arguments and counter arguments for everything I post most times. Often by accident when looking at lore.
And....what happened as a result of signing the White-Gold Concordat? Civil War. Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the treaty and the Empire abandoned them to the Thalmor. Then, only a few years later infighting broke out in Skyrim. Signing the treaty was always going to end in civil war because of just how repulsive the terms were. Mede knew this when he started the war, and he knew this when he surrendered. As I said, he faced the same choice before the war and after the Battle of the Red Ring. He could either fight, or let the Empire die slowly as a slave-state to the Dominion.
As for the Empire being tired of war, the people of Hammerfell refused to give in and continued to fight. The Nords were furious, both at the sheer dishonor of surrendering to an enemy they believed they could defeat and because they were being forced to sacrifice their traditions to the elves. The only people who might've welcomed peace at any cost were the citizens of Cyrodiil, which is hardly surprising since they've always been made of weaker stuff than the rest of the Empire.
I never said fighting back was necessary to accept death. I said there is a difference between accepting that your death is inevitable, and simply letting it take you without a fight. Accepting that you can't defeat or escape a superior opponent is one thing. Letting them kill you without even trying to defend yourself is another.
You're arguing semantics. The Empire accepted the same terms the Dominion offered at the start of the war. They agreed to pay tribute to the Thalmor and follow the Dominion's official religious doctrine. That's called a surrender any way you look at it.
And war is about sacrifice.
'Most of the Empire' meaning Cyrodiil. Hammerfell and Skyrim were furious, and we have no idea what High Rock felt about the issue.
...And? If a single, weakened nation cut off from any allies could drive out the Dominion from their territory, it follows that the Empire, possessing far greater resources and manpower, could've done so as well. Let's not forget that even before the outbreak of the Great War, the people of Hammerfell had been fighting an internal conflict for years.
30 years doesn't seem very temporary. And rebuild? Again, it's been 30 years yet the Imperial Legion can't even put down a relatively minor rebellion. It's far more likely that most of the Empire's resources went into rebuilding the cities in Cyrodiil that were destroyed during the war rather than into restoring the Legion. Which doesn't make sense at all if Mede's goal was to buy himself the time needed to regroup and rebuild his army.
The Empire gave up most of Hammerfell's territory to the Dominion by signing the Concordat, they didn't have much to lose by cutting off what little was left of the province. And seriously? Even the individuals who support the Empire are angry that the Thalmor are allowed to go around arresting anyone who opposes them with full Imperial support. The 'Sons of Skyrim' didn't stir that sentiment up. They were formed because of it.
I addressed the assassination in my post above.
Thing is, we don't even know if Titus Mede II had any heirs. We've never heard anything about them, which is odd if they exist. As for Tullius, he has his own problems to deal with in Skyrim without worrying about Imperial politics. His reaction or lack thereof doesn't mean much.
Besides, chaos isn't limited to outright civil war. The Elder Council will have to choose the next Emperor if Mede had no heirs, and we know that the Thalmor have been courting the Empire's nobility for decades. Titus would've had to been totally oblivious to not realize the potential consequences of his death at this point in time.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Almost the same terms. Not the same.
No they didn't.
The Eight/Nine Divines were the creation of the Empire. The Talos ban was so poorly enforced, that it once took the Thalmor seven days to arrest one Nord who was going about Talos in public. In Markarth... where the Justiciar's have Headquarters.
It is called postponement. The next war is coming.
A good leader knows when and when not to fight. Leading your Military to the death isn't good, you've just left thousands of your innocent civilians at the mercy of the Aldmeri Dominion. Things would have been 1000 times worse, had the Aldmeri won.
Skyrim and High Rock welcomed peace. The war had affected all the provinces of the Empire, either directly or indirectly. Thousands of Nords had died, and Skyrim had lost the source where most of their silver comes from. High Rock later lost Wayrest to pirates.
Notice how half of Skyrim supports the Empire. Those that support Ulfric Stormcloak, many of those supporters only sided with him several months ago. No one else was talking about independence in the Moot.
Hammerfell always considered themselves "Part of the Empire, but not a subject". They refused the White-Gold Concordat, Skyrim and High Rock... shockingly didn't. So obviously many welcomed peace or they would've followed Hammerfell.
And they fought a greatly weakened force, which they couldn't of even done so without the Legion in the first place. It was the Imperial Legion that halted the Dominion in Hammerfell and then drove them back across the province.
Redguards are famous warriors, one of the most naturally talented. They were fighting in their home turf, on their terms. Using most probably guerrilla warfare like in the Great War. They also didn't drive them, they signed a peace treaty and the Dominion left peacefully.
It ruined their province greatly.
They did, completely wiped out a main Aldmeri army. But they were left greatly weakened from taking the Imperial City, the Aldmeri were entrenched within. The Empire had a greatly weakened army to begin with.
Could've done so as well, how? Send their forces into Hammerfell? Leave Cyrodiil wide open to attack? The Empire had zero idea of what was beyond their borders, the Blades had all but been wiped out. Titus Mede II, had no idea what was out there.
Infighting between the Crowns and Forebears. That is political infighting, they weren't fighting some Civil War or this great internal conflict. They've always had petty infighting between the two political factions.
Even still, it makes no difference how they were before the war. They united as one during the war.
Thirty years ago the Great War started... It's been twenty six years and now dealing with open rebellion.
Yes, to restore order, repair cities, replenish the ranks. Takes time.
Twenty six.
Speculation. The Empire has been restoring the Legion, we can tell this by several things.
1) Tullius mentions majority of the Imperial Legion is on the Dominion's borders.
2) There is a new Imperial Force assembling in Cyrodiil, south of Pale Pass to march into Skyrim.
3) There are Legion patrols being assigned to escort trade shipments, which indicates they do have man power to spare.
4) The Empire also employs thousands of mercenaries.
It doesn't make sense, because you're the only one saying it?
The Empire was giving some of Hammerfell's territory, which the Aldmeri Dominion had already occupied. They were entrenched in those parts. Generally when you're signing a peace treaty, you keep what you control.
They're allowed to arrest those who break the law. No one is happy about it, but it wasn't so bad before Ulfric started to stir things up. If they're allowed to arrest anyone with full Imperial support... why can't the head of the Thalmor Justiciar's arrest one simple Nord in Markarth?
The Sons of Skyrim were formed to further Ulfric's ambitions. They were his personal army, and the originals of them were at the Markarth Incident.
Ulfric didn't have much support until he killed Torygg. But he was constantly going on about the Talos ban, and then the fighting which has been going on for years. The Thalmor are using the war for a reason to increase their presence. It is why you hear Rikke go on about "Their damned inquisition" and why the Dossier mentions Imperial victory will harm their overall position in Skyrim.
Why? Because the Thalmor need permission to arrest people. While the Civil War rages, there is a lack of guards and legion soldiers to keep an eye on the Thalmor.
He accepted his death. Much in the very same way Uriel VII accepted his death, even though he knew his death would cause much destruction because Oblivion Gates couldn't open while he was alive.
Except he knew he would die, and he willingly walked towards his death.
Why would it be? You never heard of Uriel VII's heirs until they were dead. Titus Mede II has an aunt still living, the blood line is still there. If he had no heir, you would hear about it. Why? Because people mention things like that, an Empire without any Emperors or anyone for succession.
Tullius is the Military Governor of Skyrim and is there with the authority of the Emperor. He has to worry about Imperial politics, because he is now a major player in Imperial politics. He's the acting Head of State for Skyrim.
It means he wasn't phased. He merely removes Titus II's name from the oath.
We also know the nobility who are present around the Thalmor do not trust them, they say they want peace, but as noted by their emotion in the game files. They don't believe a word of it. Many of the Jarls despise the Thalmor, and Tullius outright hate them.
What is the man going to do? You're a Dark Brotherhood assassin. Do you understand what that means?
The assassination is now known to have been the work of a group of daedric cultists known as the Mythic Dawn. (Those who still suspect the Dark Brotherhood should consider two facts: first, they would have only needed a single assassin, not a small army of them; second, the Dark Brotherhood would never be so foolish as to effectively declare war on the Empire and thus ensure their complete destruction. Witness the eventual fate of the Mythic Dawn.) - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Oblivion_Crisis
How can I sleep at night knowing my Legion can't possibly save the life of someone marked for death by the Dark Brotherhood? - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Night_Mother_Rituals!
Slaterfish
New Member
It really depends on which one seems more appealing with titles: legate or stormcloak officer. Most of the quests are the same but if you hate ulfric or tullius go with the opposite side. I personally have gone with both and there are no significant changes in either quest line apart from the quest to join either faction.
Yours sincerely
That really random guy from across the road
Yours sincerely
That really random guy from across the road
