Evolution vs Creationism Debate

Colonelscout312 · Apr 16, 2014

Ooh. This looks really cool. I don't know if these points have been brought up already, but this regards the age of the earth and is a random incursion in. First of all, most, if not all, the creatures in the ocean need salt to live, and the salt is constantly "raining", for lack of a better tern cause I'm bad with words, into the ocean. So by now, the ocean wold be solid salt that we could walk on. And the blue stars that make up the milky ways cloudy thing's, again, bad with words, can't last for millions and billions of years, and there's no evidence that new stars are forming.

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Colonelscout312 · Apr 16, 2014

DrunkenMage said:
Calling sexual reproduction creative, artistic, and God's talent. Is much like saying not jumping into a volcano is evidence of an 'artistic creation'. Sexual reproduction is efficient and effective for lifeforms of our scale.

Well, how did we figure out about sex, unless someone, God, told us about it. Did we just think, hey, my private part gets bigger, let's try putting it in her private part.

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Seanu Reaves · Apr 16, 2014

I did want to ask. What is the difference between following an educated elite on how the universe was made and how you should act, and following an educated elite who tells you how the universe operates?

Because I notice you can copy and past scientific text, but does that mean you actually understand it? Either way you are taking someone's word at face value. I mean I am no scientist, so I trust what they say off faith. What is the difference if Jesus says I should respect and love my neighbor. So I take that at face value and respect everyone I come into contact with?

Colonelscout312 · Apr 16, 2014

Jesus said love your neighbor, I don't believe he said love and respect them, he said love them like you love yourself. Sorry, I correct people on tiny mistakes, I can't help it. Anyway, that means, try and be kind to everyone you meet. If that kindness is not returned to you, they're probably having a hard time, or are just jerks. But respect is something that must be earned. I'm not going to respect every random guy that I nod at to say hello on the street, but I will love them like Christ would. And not everything is black and white that is in the Bible, it takes a lot of thinking to understand it. For instance, the commandment not to murder. Only recently did I figure out, that doesn't mean, if you're in a war and you're a Christian, you can't shoot anybody, if you have no other option to shoot someone or save your family not to shoot the guy, it just means that you can't go and plan to murder, say your roommate, then stab him with a cheese knife or something. That is a very basic example of the things in the Bible, you really have to think.

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Seanu Reaves · Apr 16, 2014

Colonelscout312 said:
Jesus said love your neighbor, I don't believe he said love and respect them, he said love them like you love yourself...

For instance, the commandment not to murder. Only recently did I figure out, that doesn't mean, if you're in a war and you're a Christian, you can't shoot anybody, if you have no other option to shoot someone or save your family not to shoot the guy, it just means that you can't go and plan to murder, say your roommate, then stab him with a cheese knife or something.

That implies you don't respect yourself. And I know that is a nitpick as well.

And I am sorry. Murder is murder. It is taking a life. Doesn't matter the situation.

Now being able to repent is also a big thing, which people like to joke that as long as you say you are sorry before your die you can be as evil as you want, but it still stands there is no reason to take a life.

Colonelscout312 · Apr 16, 2014

You're right, if we can, we should avoid taking a life. But if that is the only option, then you wouldn't be sent to hell for that, cause it's self defense with a gun.

But as for the I'm sorry right before death thing, yeah, you could. But if you believe God exists already, and you are planning on repenting before you die, there's still a likelihood of the holy spirit tugging at your heart and your guilt hanging there. And while you may seem to have a great life, that's cause ultimately, the devil runs the earth until the rapture, and he can make your life as great or, with God's permission, as bad as he wants. So if you are living sinfully, you're likely gonna have a better life for the 80 years you have on earth but have eternal torment.

And as for the not respecting yourself, Jesus just didn't say, respect others as you respect yourself, you can still respect yourself more than others, especially if that man or woman has done nothing to earn your respect.

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W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
And I am sorry. Murder is murder. It is taking a life. Doesn't matter the situation.

Most people wouldn't consider a car accident (not drunk driving) murder even if someone died. Yet the fact remains that if you lost control of your car for whatever reason and killed someone then you are responsible. But not responsible for murder. There is a reason the US govt. classifies killing of humans at different levels (manslaughter, 2nd degree, 1st degree, etc).

Murder is a subset of killing.

And I counter with a "what if". What if by inaction (i.e. not killing someone) a greater number of people die?

Seanu Reaves · Apr 17, 2014

God's or moral law is different from man's law

And what is your soul to their soul? It doesnt change the fact you are killing som one

The idea that we are worthy of being judge jury and executioner, dont change the fact we are being immoral. obviously I am a radical in this respect and view. But note "necessary evil" stiff has the word evil within it. And consider this how did you end up in this position where you have to take a life. Often it isn't to save the hundreds but yourself and the handful you care about.

It is a slippery slope that many have twisted. And they are all still committing an evil act even if they as a person are otherwise good people.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

I didn't call it a "necessary evil". That is because I don't believe that killing is always evil. Nor do I believe that the Bible teaches that.

Seanu Reaves · Apr 17, 2014

Where does "Thou shall not kill" cone from again?

I do admit that it is a radical view but still why would killing not be evil? You are pass I an eternal judgement onto someone. Something that is not your right as a human being.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
Where does "Thou shall not kill" cone from again?

There is some debate about it, but Exodus 20:13 is more often translated "Thou shall not murder". Big difference between murder and kill.

Skies said:
I do admit that it is a radical view but still why would killing not be evil? You are pass I an eternal judgement onto someone. Something that is not your right as a human being.

If you want to quote Exodus 20 as evidence to support your claim then you cannot ignore Exodus 21 where is launches into punishment for crimes:

Exodus 21:12-14 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

or Exodus 22 where it discusses self-defense:

Exodus 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Seanu Reaves · Apr 17, 2014

And if you get divorced the wife should be stones to death.

And the only difference between murder and kill is the target. You murder people, you hunt and kill an animal.

Also 21 seems to say if you plan tonkill someone you're life is forfeit, and if perchance he can be let go you should. So premeditated murder is even worse, still doesnt disprove anything. Though it is still interpretation.
It says no guilt doesn't say you didnt murder him.

Crooksin · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
And if you get divorced the wife should be stones to death.

And the only difference between murder and kill is the target. You murder people, you hunt and kill an animal.

No, the difference is intent and/or motive.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
And if you get divorced the wife should be stones to death.

I expected this. You miss my point. First, there is room for God's mercy. There must be or we are all doomed. Obviously, God takes divorce very seriously. Way more seriously than our current culture. It damages the couple and it damages the kids. Even though the prescribed punishment should be death, there is mercy (see the story about the woman caught in adultry - John 8:1-11).

Second, if you want to throw out that passage then why keep harping on Exodus 20:13? Might as well throw that out as well. How do you determine what to keep and what to throw away?

Skies said:
And the only difference between murder and kill is the target. You murder people, you hunt and kill an animal

I'm talking entirely about humans, not animals. Generally, when you hunt and kill a human (with relatively few exceptions) it is murder. That being said, the simple definition of Murder should help shed some light:

Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Notice is that it is an act that is unlawful. It is not always unlawful to kill another human being. Defense of yourself and others being the most notable exception. Now you may say that this definition of murder is not the one used in the Bible. Again I will point out the following chapters. In addition, I will point out that current translations of the Bible did, in fact, use this definition when matching the words.

On the other hand, you may not agree with this definition at all. In that case, we would have nothing more to discuss because we will not have a common verbal basis on which to argue the issue.

Skies said:
Also 21 seems to say if you plan tonkill someone you're life is forfeit, and if perchance he can be let go you should. So premeditated murder is even worse, still doesnt disprove anything. Though it is still interpretation.
It says no guilt doesn't say you didnt murder him.

See above. Murder requires unlawful activity. Self-defense is not unlawful.

Seanu Reaves · Apr 17, 2014

W'rkncacnter said:
I expected this. You miss my point. First, there is room for God's mercy. There must be or we are all doomed. Obviously, God takes divorce very seriously. Way more seriously than our current culture. It damages the couple and it damages the kids. Even though the prescribed punishment should be death, there is mercy.

Second, if you want to throw out that passage then why keep harping on Exodus 20:13? Might as well throw that out as well. How do you determine what to keep and what to throw away?

I'm talking entirely about humans, not animals. Generally, when you hunt and kill a human (with relatively few exceptions) it is murder. That being said, the simple definition of Murder should help shed some light:

Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Notice is that it is an act that is unlawful. It is not always unlawful to kill another human being. Defense of yourself and others being the most notable exception. Now you may say that this definition of murder is not the one used in the Bible. Again I will point out the following chapters. In addition, I will point out that current translations of the Bible did, in fact, use this definition when matching the words.

On the other hand, you may not agree with this definition at all. In that case, we would have nothing more to discuss because we will not have a common verbal basis on which to argue the issue.

See above. Murder requires unlawful activity. Self-defense is not unlawful.

Genesis 9:5
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
Exodus 21:12
"Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.
Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Leviticus 24:17
"'Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 5:17
"You shall not murder.

You just try to justify this but simply put what is murder? What is unlawful? It is something that is an absolute evil. And unlawful again in the eyes of god rarely matches up to man's law. You can try and justify it to yourself, and interpretations may vary. Also hunting people? How are their exceptions for that. To literally decided that a person is no longer human and a lowly animal. Now I am the first to admit this is an opinion, but still. Trying to justify killing a person is nearly impossible to me,

Note this also ties into a rejection of America's focus on punishment instead of rehabilitation.

DrunkenMage · Apr 17, 2014

Colonelscout312 said:
Ooh. This looks really cool. I don't know if these points have been brought up already, but this regards the age of the earth and is a random incursion in. First of all, most, if not all, the creatures in the ocean need salt to live, and the salt is constantly "raining", for lack of a better tern cause I'm bad with words, into the ocean. So by now, the ocean wold be solid salt that we could walk on. And the blue stars that make up the milky ways cloudy thing's, again, bad with words, can't last for millions and billions of years, and there's no evidence that new stars are forming.

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There is a lot of salt in the ocean, around 50 million billion tons of it. Salt doesn't rain, it is carried into the ocean through fresh water. There is probably enough salt in the water to cover the earth in about 500ft of it. Yet we're not walking on solid salt, why? Chemistry.

It's been raining for millions of years, why aren't we drowning in a giant ball of just water?

Billions of stars make up the 'cloudy' thing. If you look up into the night sky, see all those stars. Many are dead, but to us they're alive and burning. Why? Distance the light takes to reach us.

For those that believe the Universe is around 6,000 years old. We'd only see a tiny part of our galaxy, basically a six thousand year old radius. Yet we don't, we see beyond that.

No evidence of new stars forming? There is plenty of evidence, we just haven't properly observed it... wait no we have, from Hubble which captured a small star forming.

Colonelscout312 said:
Well, how did we figure out about sex, unless someone, God, told us about it. Did we just think, hey, my private part gets bigger, let's try putting it in her private part.

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That logic would only work if we were created then and there. Evolution has been toying with sexual reproduction for millions of years, since we are evolved, we picked it up, just like countless species did. Natural selection ensures that.

If you want to believe God hopped down and taught us how to have sex, that is for you.

".. And that Adam, is how one does it doggy " Said the Lord Almighty.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
Genesis 9:5
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
Exodus 21:12
"Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.
Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Leviticus 24:17
"'Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 5:17
"You shall not murder.

You just try to justify this but simply put what is murder? What is unlawful? It is something that is an absolute evil. And unlawful again in the eyes of god rarely matches up to man's law. You can try and justify it to yourself, and interpretations may vary. Also hunting people? How are their exceptions for that. To literally decided that a person is no longer human and a lowly animal. Now I am the first to admit this is an opinion, but still. Trying to justify killing a person is nearly impossible to me,

Note this also ties into a rejection of America's focus on punishment instead of rehabilitation.

This is such a confusing argument. You are basically agreeing with the verses that state a man should be put to death for murder while saying that you are against putting people to death for murder. . .

Can you clarify your position?

Seanu Reaves · Apr 17, 2014

Simply put. It is not man's place to pass eternal judgement. Leave the judgement to God. There is no confliction, though that is mostly interpretation. I can see why you wouldn't want to admit that somethings we as humans have done through history is utterly wrong, and a direct defilement of the word of God we choose to follow. And the fact you have to try to justify killing means it is just society moving away from religion.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

DrunkenMage said:
No evidence of new stars forming? There is plenty of evidence, we just haven't properly observed it... wait no we have, from Hubble which captured a small star forming.

Let's be honest, it took a picture of a cloud formation that scientists believe is a star forming. Given the proposed amount of time for a star to form, neither you nor I will be around to see that picture ever change.

W'rkncacnter · Apr 17, 2014

Skies said:
Simply put. It is not man's place to pass eternal judgement. Leave the judgement to God. There is no confliction, though that is mostly interpretation.

The very verses you are using to justify not putting murderers to death explicitly say to put murderers to death. It makes no sense to me.

Skies said:
And the fact you have to try to justify killing means it is just society moving away from religion.

I'm merely telling you what the Bible says (self-defense and capital punishment are okay). You are the one doing scriptural gymnastics in order to support your position.

Evolution vs Creationism Debate

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